Jeff Berlin says - Bass Teachers Work Harder at Fixing Learning Concepts That Don't Require Fixing

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@two fingers,
I read your post, I see nothing wrong, with teaching, popular music in a formal setting, In Carlsbad NM, a Mr. 'Lloyd, was a high school band director, he incorporated popular music into his program, he used his stronger students to write the different parts, Maybe you haven't heard "Stairway to Heaven" from a marching band, the school band presented in competition in the spring of 98, He allowed his pep band to play Jimmy Hendrix, version of the Star Spangled Banner in very cojnversative area of the state. Lloyd groomed his students to go to college, asking his first and second chair students to switch to other instruments, that were in demand.
For the most part, I sense some snobbery in many threads, yes music has it's secret language, and the rigors of academia assures the snobbery will continue, You highly trained people know a single word describes a technique or a concept, that would otherwise take a half a page of explanation. Take no offense, as there are other threads outside music that have secret languages.
It is probably sacreligious for me to suggest, using the teaching of something like Nashville Notation to teach theory.
All one has to do, is watch "The big bang theory," to see secret languages I doubt, more than half a percent of the viewers know what is written on the white boards.
By the way, I know someone is a world renounded bassist, the subject is important, the somebody saying it is several times in magnitude is less important.
 
I don't have a problem with working with a student and I think that you are correct that teachers should do this. I have a problem with dumbing down musical information and letting students run the lesson.

If everyone, you included, was taught how to read and write the same way, then what suddenly changed with adult men and women in music who, according to you, are so different that they are incapable of being taught music the same way?
Experience, and it's not according to me. We're all different because we are, part of being human. I agree nothing should be watered down, but as I've learned over the years, students can teach us a lot.
 
This is not solely a music/bass phenomenon. I have encountered this attitude from students not only in music, but also in my other teaching gig. Golf. Golf instruction has the same type of students, and many of the same type of instructors, and suffers the same type of poor student development because of it.
Students are always looking for shortcuts. They do not want to do the work involved. They tend to think the teacher has "magic dust" they sprinkle on the student, and after one lesson they should have complete mastery of all the skills.
Part of this problem is the need for instant gratification in today's world. ...but a lot has to do with how the instructors promote the learning. There is too much promoting the "easy" "fast" Band-Aid remedy that never truly works, because of a lack of understanding of the core fundamentals. Many instructors gear their business/ teaching model on catering to these students because they like to eat. Rather than teach to the highest ideals, they are comfortable teaching the lowest common denominator.
With my students, I always stress that they must learn the core fundamentals first, or we are both wasting our time. If they are not ready to learn that way, I suggest they come back when they are ready to learn the right way, and do the work involved. That is the only way I know of that works.
 
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For the most part, I sense some snobbery in many threads, yes music has it's secret language, and the rigors of academia assures the snobbery will continue, You highly trained people know a single word describes a technique or a concept, that would otherwise take a half a page of explanation. Take no offense, ...

None taken, but since when did wanting to help others by sharing knowledge and encouraging learning become snobbery? There are no secrets in music - seek and ye shall find...
 
Several years ago, I took an adult education class in supervisory techniques, one three hour encounter was an absolute waste of time, so I approached the the teacher, to express my opinion, turns out, about 15% of his class expresses the same opinion, yet 50% of the the class appreciates the teaching method. Adults and yes children learn differently, Is it the responsibility of the student to find the teacher who can best teach him, or is it the responsibility of the institution to what teaching styles should be used. The institution should have the greater knowledge.
Financial factors will typically limit an institution to two maybe three methods of ten or twelve that are recognized. Our public school systems unforunately does not have the luxury of limiting teaching methods so the system gets bogged down meeting the needs of the most needy, while institutions of higher learning can be more selective. Choose your elite students, teach them the way you want, you are not wrong, but by the same token you are not correct, to assume all need the same knowledge
 
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Has anyone noticed some bass teachers' attempts to take concepts of academic learning and try to make them easier to understand instead of encouraging bass students to learn them in their present form?

Yeah... why go and teach elementary school students basic physics without equations, and why teach high school students physics using algebra?

Start those elementary kids out with physics using calculus - it is after all the math invented for doing physics.

:rollno:
 
Yeah... why go and teach elementary school students basic physics without equations, and why teach high school students physics using algebra?

Start those elementary kids out with physics using calculus - it is after all the math invented for doing physics.

:rollno:
I hope your post is tongue in cheek, As I have pdfs to teach applied Newtonian physicists some of the more basic engineering principles commonly referred to as statics, using graphical methods, I also have three of four books of a series to teach engineers some junior level classes without calculus. If you are a physicist an engineer, or a mathmetian you know there are three different approaches to teaching elementary calculus,
I do not agree with that math (particularly calculus), was invented to do physics, it just made three times as fast when compared to using algebra. By the way, one of my kids was using rudimintry calculus in grade school, the child was also introduced to elementary statistics, the same level I saw in my freshman physics class, where calculus was used.
We have all seen the 16ft/(sec2) formula, but how many really know where it comes from?
 
Everyone was not taught to read and write the same way.

Reading is taught using:

Phonics
Linguistic/Whole word method
Language experience method

I'm guessing a relatively low percentage of folks learned to read as I did - through pure, rote memorization.
You are maybe the first person I've read about that wasn't taught how to read and write in school.
 
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@two fingers,
I read your post, I see nothing wrong, with teaching, popular music in a formal setting, In Carlsbad NM, a Mr. 'Lloyd, was a high school band director, he incorporated popular music into his program, he used his stronger students to write the different parts, Maybe you haven't heard "Stairway to Heaven" from a marching band, the school band presented in competition in the spring of 98, He allowed his pep band to play Jimmy Hendrix, version of the Star Spangled Banner in very cojnversative area of the state.
I will only add that all the musicians that played in these bands already learned how to read and play music or else they wouldn't have been in those bands.
 
I hope your post is tongue in cheek, As I have pdfs to teach applied Newtonian physicists some of the more basic engineering principles commonly referred to as statics, using graphical methods, I also have three of four books of a series to teach engineers some junior level classes without calculus. If you are a physicist an engineer, or a mathmetian you know there are three different approaches to teaching elementary calculus,

Yes.. it was tongue and cheek - there are many different approaches to teaching anything, including music.

I do not agree with that math (particularly calculus), was invented to do physics, it just made three times as fast when compared to using algebra.

Actually - Newton's invention of calculus (see: Method of fluxions) was actually driven by physics.
 
Several years ago, I took an adult education class in supervisory techniques, one three hour encounter was an absolute waste of time, so I approached the the teacher, to express my opinion, turns out, about 15% of his class expresses the same opinion, yet 50% of the the class appreciates the teaching method. Adults and yes children learn differently, Is it the responsibility of the student to find the teacher who can best teach him, or is it the responsibility of the institution to what teaching styles should be used. The institution should have the greater knowledge.
Financial factors will typically limit an institution to two maybe three methods of ten or twelve that are recognized. Our public school systems unforunately does not have the luxury of limiting teaching methods so the system gets bogged down meeting the needs of the most needy, while institutions of higher learning can be more selective. Choose your elite students, teach them the way you want, you are not wrong, but by the same token you are not correct, to assume all need the same knowledge
Good point! But no matter the interest in style, no matter the goals set by any individual player, every single person seeking to play has to know the exact same musical information as everyone else does. Before you can play a Gospel or rock song, you need to know what (say) G major is. And this IS the point. Yet, so far, practically everyone commenting on these posts tends to overlook this fact.
 
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Yeah... why go and teach elementary school students basic physics without equations, and why teach high school students physics using algebra?

Start those elementary kids out with physics using calculus - it is after all the math invented for doing physics.

:rollno:
Well, I would rather suggest to teach elementary students basic skills that fit their youth and inexperience. Where you appear confused is that you might be associating complicated content with content.
 
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Yeah... why go and teach elementary school students basic physics without equations, and why teach high school students physics using algebra?

Start those elementary kids out with physics using calculus - it is after all the math invented for doing physics.

:rollno:

They won't do any of it if they can't multiply or divide, neither of which can be fully understood if they can't add up...
 
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I was reading about 2 years before I started preschool.

...and even among those taught to read in school, there are numerous different methods used.
Great! I certainly believe you. You are the first completely self taught reader and writer I've met. If you already could read and write, can you tell me what you did in English classes during elementary school when other students were being taught how to read and write? Also, can you share what those numerous different methods are? I am interested to know.
 
Good point! But no matter the interest in style, no matter the goals set by any individual player, every single person seeking to play has to know the exact same musical information as everyone else does. Before you can play a Gospel or rock song, you need to know what (say) G major is. And this IS the point. Yet, so far, practically everyone commenting on these posts tends to overlook this fact.
you and I do not share the same opinion, but because of your credentials your opinion carries a greater weight. If I were to guess less than 1% of the TBers have your education. I play with a bunch of guys who have trouble reading lead sheets, they rely on lyrics and chord sheets. Much of the music they play is not available on staff. I would surprised to find 10% of the TBers would want to go through the rigors Breklee put you through. I don't know the history of jazz much less jazz fusion, so I do not know how long written jazz and jazz fusion music has been available. I do know that the music is complex and tough to score.
I prefer at the minimum a lead sheet with chords when it comes to music, I will take lyrics and chords in a pinch.
As to musical information, other methods have been created, to convey what is wanted, is it as concise as the Italian staff, no, even the the western classical methods have been supplemented with chord notes. You opinion is valid, but I for one never had the desire to prepare for an audition to a major university, much less one as selective as your alma mater.
So, please do not insist that I fit your mold.
It's only because of my curiosity that I study elementary music theory. I am lost, when someone asks for E75b
 
you and I do not share the same opinion, but because of your credentials your opinion carries a greater weight. If I were to guess less than 1% of the TBers have your education. I play with a bunch of guys who have trouble reading lead sheets, they rely on lyrics and chord sheets. Much of the music they play is not available on staff. I would surprised to find 10% of the TBers would want to go through the rigors Breklee put you through. I don't know the history of jazz much less jazz fusion, so I do not know how long written jazz and jazz fusion music has been available. I do know that the music is complex and tough to score.
I prefer at the minimum a lead sheet with chords when it comes to music, I will take lyrics and chords in a pinch.
As to musical information, other methods have been created, to convey what is wanted, is it as concise as the Italian staff, no, even the the western classical methods have been supplemented with chord notes. You opinion is valid, but I for one never had the desire to prepare for an audition to a major university, much less one as selective as your alma mater.
So, please do not insist that I fit your mold.
It's only because of my curiosity that I study elementary music theory. I am lost, when someone asks for E75b
My views only pertain to people that pay to learn. If you are a self taught musician, I would have no opinion in what you choose for yourself.

If you choose to not fit the mold of proper learning, I can only suggest that this is a poor choice on your part. We all share a lot of common needs before we can play. We all share common backgrounds, common training, common philosophies and beliefs. To assume that you don't fit the mold that I lay out for learning points towards your not realizing our common musical needs that have to be fulfilled before we can play well. You certainly fit the academic mold that I state because everyone does. Whether or not they wish to see this truth is up to people. But, ignoring it doesn't make it any less true,

Learning is different than playing which means that in art, while there are few established molds, learning is entirely about them or else you will end up with what we have today, a huge community of bass players who have trouble with their playing precisely for the same reasons that you might; you don't wish to fit into the proven academic mold regarding method and content. Yours is a choice that will stop your musical development because you aren't accepting that proven established methods of learning music apply to us all. Your musical future is in your hands so make the best choice that you can make for yourself. I invite you to rethink your position. Either way, good luck in whatever you choose for yourself.
 
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