Jeff Berlin says - Bass Teachers Work Harder at Fixing Learning Concepts That Don't Require Fixing

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It's the one covered in green chile.

I reject the 'secret sauce' thing. (I need to put up there that I'm also a nasty old curmudgeon) It's the Wizard of Oz's game: A facade - a ruse. I'm thinking that musos did it at some point in order to maintain their power over "secret knowledge". "Hey, let's use weird greek names and funky letters and symbols so that people will think it's really hard and weird and they'll have pay us for it"....

Same as lots of things - the old medicine men never told anybody how they knew when an eclipse was coming unless they went through a big intitiation process. They pretended it was some kind of hocus-pocus but it was really just some math.
 
Care to explain a bit? He's just doing some simple math. I posted an abstraction up there that systematizes and simplifies it down 7 modes for seven notes making 7 modes for the one major scale. But that's from 30k feet. In terms of the details, there is no arguing the math.

Because he is wasting his time worrying about this. If he didn't have holes, he would realize this, and would be working on something of useful value.
 
Nice idea, except its not new. Nice idea, except its not new. In the really early church music books...

"Nothing new under the sun".

I did learn that somewhere, sometime in one of the courses I took, but I thought of it myself a long time ago, when I first started learning theory.

I am programmer by trade - music is a serious hobby for me - weekend warrior, and now mostly an old fart who noodles around and shoots the sh-it on the internet. So I like numbers and abstactions - they make things a lot simpler. The traditional names and conventions are rather arbitrary, based on the tastes and beliefs of a certain group of people, but logically/mathematically there doesn't seem to be anything compelling about them.

Having said that, I think there is an argument to be made that the sound of the major scale and tunes built around it is inherently pleasing to most people, and there is some math to back that up.

Sometimes I mess around with chromatic harmonica and my dog likes to listen. I did a little test with him: When I played a nice major triad he listened complacently but if I played something weird and dissonant, his ears would start twitching and he'd fidget around a bit. His reaction is not because of what I listen to because I listen mostly to jazz -and not the smooth kind.
 
I tend to agree on that. I never distinguish between "modes" and "scales" - scales are modes and modes are scales. It's all just scales to me.

Calling one a mode and one a scale is arbitrary - 500 years ago (?) they were very big Ionian fans so they called that the major scale (even though it's not the most "major" - Lydian is) and everything else is "a mode of the major scale".

In the diatonic system you've got a collection of 7 notes in a particular order with fixed distances separating them. Start at any point and you can spell a scale that is harmonized in a different way - that's it.

...
Since we agree on the chromatic distances between the notes A,B,C,D,E,F and G, we could just say "The scale starting with A is scale #1" - "The scale starting with F is scale #4" . Nothing to get scared or confused about. (We could also make things easier by using numbers instead of letters to name the notes - but that's a different discussion.)

...Musicians wouldn't always be worried about "is this major or is this minor - is this allowed - is this bad?" and they wouldn't be scared to death to mess with mystical "incantations" like "Locrian" or "Lydian".

Problem is that after so many hundreds of years of thinking and writing and notating and designating using the tradition terminology, making a change like that would be impossible. We'd have to rip up everything and start all over. ....

After the French Revolution, they tried to start using a new calendar, based on the decimal system - ten days to a week etc etc. The new government made that the official calendar - it made much more sense - a lot more symmetrical and logical than the traditional calender that we use. Most people in their private lives ignored it completely. For a couple of years the revolutionary zealots stuck with it. But in few years the whole idea disappeared - it was impossible to change the system that was in place, even though the new one made more sense. It's the same reason they never adopted the metric system for most things in the USA and Great Britain even though it's much easier to work with.
modes/scales: I don't have enough training to incorporate the extra modes beyound Ionian, and Aeolian. I'll stick to the more conventional major/minor labels. :help:
500 years ago: I thought only the notes found on the white keys of the piano, were the only acceptable notes. And I believe the tuning was different. I know who to blame, but its against the rules and the ten commandments, to say who I think is, with out further study. :lock:
Scales starting with A is (as) scale #1. I would like to start with C after all it is middle ground on a piano. Besides that, I started a thread on TalkBass to discuss whether the Do Re Mi scale should be fixed, or be movable. There's also an option to discuss whether sharps and flats should be included or alternate spelling be used for the half-steps. I declare myself bias on this point. :bag:
Incantations: I think maybe this thread is beginning to leak secret sauce, the one that has carrots as an ingredient.:bookworm:
Start all over: As Marx and Lenin, (Not Lennon), (Thats Harpo, and the cloth made from flax), once said, what's the sense of living unless you have a few revolutions every few years. We could clean house, and make bass playing an acceptable musical occupation. :rolleyes:
The French, and the metric system: Okay, the French are like the drummers of the world (nuff said). Metrics, the bolts and nuts in the metric system are not as strong as the bolts in the SAE system. When you buy a 100 ft measuring tape, make sure it isn't a civil engineer's tape. Watch out for the engineers scale in drafting, And some of the metric equivalents are just funky to work with.

Please don't take me too seriously, as I stated, I have my imaginary bridge that I live under, along with other T-beings.
 
Because he is wasting his time worrying about this

You still haven't explained anything about those alleged holes. That's the important part: Where are the holes? What are they?

If you can't explain that, you're not saying anything any of us should accept - no contributing to the discussion. Are you just saying 'who cares'? Well - some people care, and some don't. You don't have to care but you can't say that if you don't care, other people shouldn't either. That's just you.

And some people just like to shoot the sh-it about such things - it's interesting, "for those who find such things interesting". Again you don't have to be part of that group.
 
You are overthinking this stuff, and making it way overly complicated. This is a result of holes in your understanding of basic Music Theory. I recommend that you start from the beginning again and fill those holes.

Because he is wasting his time worrying about this. If he didn't have holes, he would realize this, and would be working on something of useful value.
What's that Tom Hanks movie where aTV show sees everything through the character's eyes. That would explain why my head hurts. I'm glad someone knows what I am thinking. (Mr. Troll pass the jelly).
 
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... I learnt about chords symbols including stuff like C9+11, C7b5 etc, first, and a fair bit later, modes. .....

It is nice to be able to analyse one's own playing, though. I guess a most used list of modes and recorded examples could be useful for someone delving into it fresh, and I would absolutely recommend using the Piano to work out scales and theory as it's so much easier than doing it on the Bass, imo.
Someone posted there were 1490 possible scales, As someone at the age, where Alhiemers is a possiblity, Give me the C9+11, and the C7b5, over mode names and other possible scales. If I can't remember where I left my bass, I don't think I'll remember even the names of the seven basic modes.
 
"Nothing new under the sun".



Sometimes I mess around with chromatic harmonica and my dog likes to listen. I did a little test with him: When I played a nice major triad he listened complacently but if I played something weird and dissonant, his ears would start twitching and he'd fidget around a bit. His reaction is not because of what I listen to because I listen mostly to jazz -and not the smooth kind.

See if he likes Ritchie Bierach and Dave Liebman. I draw the line at Cecil Taylor, though.
 
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Someone posted there were 1490 possible scales, As someone at the age, where Alhiemers is a possiblity, Give me the C9+11, and the C7b5, over mode names and other possible scales. If I can't remember where I left my bass, I don't think I'll remember even the names of the seven basic modes.

Can you imagine the real book with modes instead of chord symbols.

Now that would be funny. Great trick to play on deps that don't know standards:)
 
As someone at the age, where Alhiemers is a possiblity.... If I can't remember where I left my bass...

I found a solution for that: I keep it one place, tied down.... As long as I know where that one place is, I'm OK. I do the same with my keys and my phone and wallet - it works!

Maybe we need to restrict this thread to people over 60 - getting to the "If you can't play it, talk it" stage... :roflmao:


@CereBassum, thanks for coming to the defense...

Don't take it personally. I wasn't defending you - you're a troll! :spam: I just was curious about those holes - maybe I need new glasses because I don't see them.
 
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Can you imagine the real book with modes instead of chord symbols.

Impossible: That would immediately destroy the livelihood of 90% of the worlds bass players. I have a bass player friend - he's mostly a rock and jazz guy but he also plays upright in a symphony orchestra. I asked him how he learned to read that well - must have worked hard on it. He told me "I don't read well at all - I just watch the guy next to me in the bass section and play whatever he's playing". :rolleyes:

I took about 6 months of lessons from a working jazz pro in NYC. A total unknown, but he has constant work - been playing maybe 10 gigs a week for the last 20 years - upright and PBass - bar room trios, big bands, blues bands, broadway shows, recordings, symphonies - you name it, he's done it as a hired gun in NYC, the most competitive music market in the world. Every time we'd finish a lesson, he'd be packing up his gear to run off to a gig.

How does he do it? He is world class reader. Put a sheet in front of him - something/anything - he can immediately sing it out from start to finish, play it on piano and on his upright without a second of hesitation - no preparation at all. "I walk in, they put it in front of me and I play it." So yeah - he's loaded with work as a lowly free-lance bass player and supports a family living in a decent area doing that.
 
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See if he likes Ritchie Bierach and Dave Liebman.

Bierach I do not know - maybe I should? Liebman I don't care for that all the much. I do like a lot of Michael Brecker's stuff, but mostly I listen to guys from my time - maybe your time too - Coltrane, Dolphy, Monk, Mingus, Miles, etc, and some of the fusion stuff. Chick Corea blows me away.

The pooch takes it all in - he likes music of all kinds. But when there is a sudden shift like that - from something in upbeat major to something weird, he reacts. So maybe that doesn't mean much. He's reacting to the change more than anything else. I need to try it the opposite way - play something harsh and dissonant and then switch to Happy Birthday - see how he takes it.

He doesn't run out of the room if I put on Archie Shepp or Coltrane 1966 - he listens. Dogs definitely listen to music - they react especially to the treble side of things. They feel the low end but I'm not sure they hear it as something coherent - just thumping. I can play anything on the bass - doesn't make much of a difference to him - he just likes to feel the rhythmic thumping.
 
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I found a solution for that: I keep it one place, tied down.... As long as I know where that one place is, I'm OK. I do the same with my keys and my phone and wallet - it works!

Maybe we need to restrict this thread to people over 60 - getting to the "If you can't play it, talk it" stage... :roflmao:




Don't take it personally. I wasn't defending you - you're a troll! :spam: I just was curious about those holes - maybe I need new glasses because I don't see them.
You're not too far off, as I said, I have a imaginary bridge that I reside under at times, with other T-beings.
@Mark Ambler, Regarding, a book, about jazz in modes, write it. The music would be original scores, because they are transcriptions. It probably could be written as a satire, call it The Real Secret Sauce of Jazz, and other Incantations. (Just wondering, would it make sense to write the scores in colored notes, say black for the bass, red for the horns, blue for others, six line staff, so both treble and bass clef can be represented on one staff. (Does any one play jazz viola, as I am leaving their C clef out). To make it really fun, use the Cornell Note System to present it, and include NNS (Nashville Notation System), just in case, some one wants to change the key.
My guess, a computer program could be written in say Prolog, to identify what mode should be used. I would include an appendix, or hyperlinks to tie everything together.
 
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Bierach I do not know - maybe I should? Liebman I don't care for that all the much. I do like a lot of Michael Brecker's stuff, but mostly I listen to guys from my time - maybe your time too - Coltrane, Dolphy, Monk, Mingus, Miles, etc, and some of the fusion stuff. Chick Corea blows me away.

The pooch takes it all in - he likes music of all kinds. But when there is a sudden shift like that - from something in upbeat major to something weird, he reacts. So maybe that doesn't mean much. He's reacting to the change more than anything else. I need to try it the opposite way - play something harsh and dissonant and then switch to Happy Birthday - see how he takes it.

He doesn't run out of the room if I put on Archie Shepp or Coltrane 1966 - he listens. Dogs definitely listen to music - they react especially to the treble side of things. They fell the low end but I'm not sure they hear it as something coherent - just thumping. I can play anything on the bass - doesn't make much of a difference to him - he just likes to feel the rhythmic thumping.

Ritchie Bierach worked with Dave Liebman a fair bit, quite avantgarde and not my cup of tea, but Bierach did release an outstanding trio album,'Elegy for Bill Evans', with George Mraz and Al Foster which I really liked. Bierach was actually a friend of Evans, and there are some musical similarities, although I would say that Bierach gets a lot 'darker' harmonically.
Must also mention Bill Evans & Eddie Gomez - 'Intuition'. Probably my all time favourite record.
 
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Must also mention Bill Evans & Eddie Gomez - 'Intuition'. Probably my all time favourite record.

I like anything with Bill Evans. He could play Humpty Dumpty and make it beautiful and meaningful.

But I don't want to get into a favorite records discussion. It would be way too long. I'll just say that my favorite recordings of all time are from Coltrane's 'Classic Quartet' from the early 60's, up until Crescent and Dear Old Stockholm. After that he lost me (along with McCoy and Elvin...).
 
You need to copyright the idea and get to work on it immediately, before someone steals it.
I don't care if someone steals the idea from me. I don't think I could get passed the first page.
I have trouble writing out blues songs, using the 12 bar formula, and the I IV V chord patterns. I am highly limited to the circle of 4ths and 5ths, the best I got is 24 keys, and use maybe 5 on a regular basis. My lean is toward simple blues, with hoaky lyrics, and simple transitions.
 
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