Jeff Berlin says - Every Slapper and Rocker at NAMM Is Self Taught

[Acoustic356]

@JeffBerlin, I actually partially agree with you. When I picked up the bass almost 4 years ago, I went to a teacher who had a method. It was “his way”. Within a year I excelled much further that I would have had I gone my own way.

Since then, I have reached out to other instructors to capture elements that I need to augment my craft.

Since I have a day job and my need to be technically relevant means that I will never have time to invest in learning standards or be in an environment where I will have t leverage reading.

My understanding of practical theory has really enhanced what I do to the point where many local singer songwriters and bands ask me to write bass lines for their songs and projects.

I think the primary difference between most of the teachers that I have worked with is that they (being session and performing artists)encourage the use of a metronome and how to play with feel using a metronome.

Many big shows where there is a live band, but the singer is lip syncing require you to lock into a time. In instances like that time is fixed.

My weekly gig is a timed gig where our time is blocked for live television, as a result... if we have 2:37 to play... it has to be 2 minutes and 37seconds.

Every tool that you add to your arsenal is helpful for maximum employment as a musician:

• Reading
• Slap
• Playing to a metronome
• Playing Upright
• Knowing standards
• Playing with a pick
• Etc.

 

[SteveCS]

...
You have financed another person to be totally responsible for your musical improvement.
...

@JeffBerlin You will have seen that I agree with pretty much everything you say about what is important to teach and how to go about it, including in the main your views on the metronome. But I think this is a false premise, and in fact almost undermines the rest of it. A teacher cannot, nor should they, hold themselves responsible for something over which they have no control any more than a student should be allowed to abdicate responsibility for that over which they have total control, namely practice, revision and learning. The teacher/student relatiinship is a partnership with each making some commitment to the other. The final objective can only be realised if both parties deliver their parts, rather like being in a band.
Even after 35 years of playing, I would love to sign up for a few of your lessons but I cannot commit the time I believe necessary for me to deliver my part of the deal, meaning you would not meet your guarantee but through absolutely no fault of your own.
Just thinking aloud...

 

[Brad Johnson]

Anytime that you pay someone to instruct you, your are no longer in a self taught paradigm. You have financed another person to be totally responsible for your musical improvement. This is why I've said for years that there are only two valid ways (or a combination of those two ways) to improve as a bass player 1. By being self taught and 2. Being taught musical content. If ever style of music has been shown to be best learned by literally being in them, and if history shows that literally everyone else learned musical content, then the mere IDEA of paying to learn how to slap seem ridiculous.

I was genuinely curious as to how you would address the glaring disconnect I along with others had pointed out.. and you didn't. In even simpler terms you have stated the following to both be true:

1. Slap is taught by teachers.

2. All slappers are self taught. No teachers.

They're simply contradictory. You did state the obvious that you can either be taught or learn on your own or a combination of the the two and I'd have to guess that you don't think that slap falls under that for some reason. Edit: I recall a story of someone suffering a blow to the head and when they regained consciousness they knew how to play the piano. So that's another method I supposed.

But that doesn't address the core problem... everyone can't be one thing if two opposing states exist. Outside of entertainment you can't be alive if you're dead. Or vice versa. It's basic logic.

The absolutism is a big part of the problem. Look at what I highlighted: "You have financed another person to be totally responsible for your musical improvement". Is that true? Maybe... maybe not. But you are stating it as if it were fact, when I'm sure you know that exceptions abound. I'm sure that why you do this is probably fascinating.

 

[eno50]

It will indicate the source of learning that created those players in the first place. I predict a huge response of being self taught which should get some to think that students paying to learn slap or rock may be spending an awful lot of money to be taught things that nearly everyone else learns for free. Then do what you wish with the information that you gather.

Education is a great thing .. But to much takes the icing off the cake
Jeff's a great player and educator ,no doubt about that..
It is a fine line, I think creativity is what separates ,coming up with new techniques experimenting lead to go things too.
Education helps with that.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I was genuinely curious as to how you would address the glaring disconnect I along with others had pointed out.. and you didn't. In even simpler terms you have stated the following to both be true:

1. Slap is taught by teachers.

2. All slappers are self taught. No teachers.

They're simply contradictory. You did state the obvious that you can either be taught or learn on your own or a combination of the the two and I'd have to guess that you don't think that slap falls under that for some reason.

But that doesn't address the core problem... everyone can't be one thing if two opposing states exist. Outside of entertainment you can't be alive if you're dead. Or vice versa. It's basic logic.

The absolutism is a big part of the problem. Look at what I highlighted: "You have financed another person to be totally responsible for your musical improvement". Is that true? Maybe... maybe not. But you are stating it as if it were fact, when I'm sure you know that exceptions abound. I'm sure that why you do this is probably fascinating.

People come up with all kinds of "what if's" and "what about's." It is exhausting answering all the turns and debate perspectives that TB people seem accustomed to. Some people here seem to work harder to not get my points than to get them. This is their choice.

I gave this topic my best shot and even offered options for people to validate their beliefs about academic slap. No one accepted but debated its ineffectiveness.

Take what I offered in this thread and either acccept or reject it Ultimately, it is your musical future that rests with your decisions on how to learn. In this endeavor, I wish you good luck.

 

[JeffBerlin]

@JeffBerlin, I actually partially agree with you. When I picked up the bass almost 4 years ago, I went to a teacher who had a method. It was “his way”. Within a year I excelled much further that I would have had I gone my own way.

Since then, I have reached out to other instructors to capture elements that I need to augment my craft.

Since I have a day job and my need to be technically relevant means that I will never have time to invest in learning standards or be in an environment where I will have t leverage reading.

My understanding of practical theory has really enhanced what I do to the point where many local singer songwriters and bands ask me to write bass lines for their songs and projects.

I think the primary difference between most of the teachers that I have worked with is that they (being session and performing artists)encourage the use of a metronome and how to play with feel using a metronome.

Many big shows where there is a live band, but the singer is lip syncing require you to lock into a time. In instances like that time is fixed.

My weekly gig is a timed gig where our time is blocked for live television, as a result... if we have 2:37 to play... it has to be 2 minutes and 37seconds.

Every tool that you add to your arsenal is helpful for maximum employment as a musician:

• Reading
• Slap
• Playing to a metronome
• Playing Upright
• Knowing standards
• Playing with a pick
• Etc.

Nonsense! Forgive my blunt answer, but the only tools (other than the instrument and amp) that any musician needs is knowledge and experience in music, instrument, and styles. You need nothing else to acquire either a career or a satisfying amateur musical experience. Bass players complicate the simple approach to playing which explains why so many bass players struggle with music even after years of playing.

 

[Brad Johnson]

People come up with all kinds of "what if's" and "what about's." It is exhausting answering all the turns and debate perspectives that TB people seem accustomed to. Some people here seem to work harder to not get my points than to get them. This is their choice.

I gave this topic my best shot and even offered options for people to validate their beliefs about academic slap. No one accepted but debated its ineffectiveness.

Take what I offered in this thread and either acccept or reject it Ultimately, it is your musical future that rests with your decisions on how to learn. In this endeavor, I wish you good luck.

I can't accept that the two specific things I asked about could both be true. Do you accept that they can't?

To the contrary, I specifically asked you about your diametrically opposed points that are clearly at odds with each other. Because upon rereading they still conflict with either other and both points are yours alone. That's not about me or anyone else not trying to understand you, quite the opposite. That's why I asked, because I'm trying to understand the logic. What's likely exhaustive is not being able to explain how the two opposing things you've repeatedly said could simultaneously be true. You clearly aren't addressing that and that's cool... I couldn't make sense of it either.

Good luck to you.

To belabor the point, your point, that I'm apparently not getting, is that:

1. People teach slap.

2. All slappers are self taught. Even the ones who had teachers.

 

[kesslari]

I can't accept that the two specific things I asked about could both be true. Do you accept that they can't?

To belabor the point, your point, that I'm apparently not getting, is that:

1. People teach slap.

2. All slappers are self taught. Even the ones who had teachers.

Schroedinger's bass slapper lives.

 

[Lownote38]

I can't accept that the two specific things I asked about could both be true. Do you accept that they can't?

To the contrary, I specifically asked you about your diametrically opposed points that are clearly at odds with each other. Because upon rereading they still conflict with either other and both points are yours alone. That's not about me or anyone else not trying to understand you, quite the opposite. That's why I asked, because I'm trying to understand the logic. What's likely exhaustive is not being able to explain how the two opposing things you've repeatedly said could simultaneously be true. You clearly aren't addressing that and that's cool... I couldn't make sense of it either.

Good luck to you.

To belabor the point, your point, that I'm apparently not getting, is that:

1. People teach slap.

2. All slappers are self taught. Even the ones who had teachers.

The way I've read Jeff's posts is like this...

1. People PURPORTEDLY teach slap bass to students, BUT these students need not pay money for something they can easily learn on their own for free.

2. The teachers are self taught, so why are they charging money to purportedly teach others how to slap. Those students should learn to slap on their own like the supposed teacher did.

I see no contradiction looking at it this way.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Schroedinger's bass slapper lives.

Quantum mechanics applied to slappers... sweet.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The way I've read Jeff's posts is like this...

1. People PURPORTEDLY teach slap bass to students, BUT these students need not pay money for something they can easily learn on their own for free.

2. The teachers are self taught, so why are they charging money to purportedly teach others how to slap. Those students should learn to slap on their own like the supposed teacher did.

I see no contradiction looking at it this way.

Really?

So you still see no contradiction with the idea that all slappers are self-taught yet they teach slap... to someone... who would no longer be self-taught? It's a pretty amusing circle at this point. One that some supposedly continue to not see.

If they're all self-taught than there cannot be a problem with slap being taught for money... for what should be obvious reasons. They could no longer ALL be self taught.

Frankly the idea that someone passes knowledge on is problematic based on how they acquired it seems specious. The idea that this is narrowed down to slap seems equally so. Slap shouldn't be taught... but every other technique is okay? Are lessons the only way to learn theory? Why is some instruction bad while okay for other techniques?

Because that's all that slap is... a technique. The harm in seeking that help out is...?

 

[Brad Johnson]

The harm is paying money to learn something that is merely a technique that you can learn on your own. I didn't learn to slap by paying for it. I heard someone else do it and learned it myself. That goes for every technique I know (fingerstyle, playing with a pick, slapping, tapping, etc.). Technique wasn't really a part of my music education unless I was holding/playing my bass in a way that would cause me physical harm in the future. Even then, my teacher would explain why what I was doing wasn't good for my wrists, or back, etc. and then we moved on to something worth paying for pretty quickly.

... and yes, I still see no contradiction within the things Jeff has said.

What exactly does money have to do with any of this?

If someone TODAY wanted to learn how to slap they could go on Youtube and find many lessons FOR FREE. Is that somehow not being taught?

And because you learned techniques on your own NO ONE should ever be taught ANY techniques? That flies in the face of focusing on slap. Then you recall an incident when technique WAS part of your education? Weird. Do you not get that what your teacher told you was part of your education?


It's like saying "I never drink". Except for an occasional beer. Maybe a wine spritzer. Or some hooch when I visit my family in the Ozarks.

You've negated the first statement with the exceptions. Never means never. Not sometimes.



I'm self-taught because of the environment and time I grew up in. Would I refuse to look at any of the vast resources available today if I were starting now? No! This smacks of the same mindset that says "All of my heroes played four strings so that's good enough for me!"... despite the fact that that's all that was available to them back in the day.


Jeff said: All slappers are self-taught AND People teach slap. The fact that you see those as both being viable at the same time speaks volumes. Carry on.


I remember when Alexis Sklarevski, Beaver Felton, Louis Johnson and Larry Graham all had instructional videos ( I didn't watch any of them at any length). Apparently no one learned anything from them so they could retain their "self-taught" status.

 

[Bassbeater]

The harm is paying money to learn something that is merely a technique that you can learn on your own.

try applying this logic to sports, surgery, really anything beside playing bass percussively and see how far you get!
This thread is dead to me. If anyone wants a free slap lesson let me know. Warning: there will be metronomes.

 

[Lownote38]

What exactly does money have to do with any of this?

If someone TODAY wanted to learn how to slap they could go on Youtube and find many lessons FOR FREE. Is that somehow not being taught?

And because you learned techniques on your own NO ONE should ever be taught ANY techniques? That flies in the face of focusing on slap. Then you recall an incident when technique WAS part of your education? Weird. Do you not get that what your teacher told you was part of your education?


It's like saying "I never drink". Except for an occasional beer. Maybe a wine spritzer. Or some hooch when I visit my family in the Ozarks.

You've negated the first statement with the exceptions. Never means never. Not sometimes.



I'm self-taught because of the environment and time I grew up in. Would I refuse to look at any of the vast resources available today if I were starting now? No! This smacks of the same mindset that says "All of my heroes played four strings so that's good enough for me!"... despite the fact that that's all that was available to them back in the day.


Jeff said: All slappers are self-taught AND People teach slap. The fact that you see those as both being viable at the same time speaks volumes. Carry on.


I remember when Alexis Sklarevski, Beaver Felton, Louis Johnson and Larry Graham all had instructional videos ( I didn't watch any of them at any length). Apparently no one learned anything from them so they could retain their "self-taught" status.

I'm not going to try and explain my position on this again as it seems you just want to be confrontational about it. I'm not sure why so many people can't read Jeff's posts and gain something positive from them instead of attacking his views and the views of people who happen to agree with him. That's confusing.

Otherwise, we're all bass players here and we gotta stick together. I can agree to disagree as far as this topic goes.

 

[Gorn]

What exactly does money have to do with any of this?

Apparently everything, or nothing? I'm confused.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm not going to try and explain my position on this again as it seems you just want to be confrontational about it. I'm not sure why so many people can't read Jeff's posts and gain something positive from them instead of attacking his views and the views of people who happen to agree with him. That's confusing.

Otherwise, we're all bass players here and we gotta stick together. I can agree to disagree as far as this topic goes.

The fact that you see me as being confrontational while you also can't see the blatantly contradictory things I pointed out sums it up nicely. No, I can't read things that contradict each other and make sense of them. Neither could Jeff. BTW do you consider him confrontational? Probably not.

I'm not attacking anything or anyone, I think I'm politely asking a question about something that on the surface makes no sense yet people like you are asking why we don't "get it". And you haven't explained the contradiction either. Why not? I'm not sure how some people continuously ignore problematic statements of his. That's confusing.

If it makes sense, explain it. If it doesn't I don't expect anyone to admit that. I was hesitant about chiming in here, I'm pretty sure the last time I talked to him was about discussing his version of why I (and every other fretless player) play fretless back on the old The Bottom Line forum. That was a hoot. The absolutism was strong back then too.

If I have a strong publicly stated opinion I have no problem with scrutiny. In fact I welcome it.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I'm just trying to support Jeff's approach to music education as I agree with him. If you don't agree, it's not worth arguing about.

Supporting his approach to music education is fine. The problem people are having is with the contradictory and fallacious arguments against things. Illogical arguments should be pointed out even if they are made by people you support. Rational thought and analysis always should take precedence over dogma.

There is nothing that can be taught that can’t be learned on one’s own, so that is not a viable reason in and of itself to not learn something from a teacher.

Nearly every slapper being self taught, which is up for argument already, is not a viable reason in and of itself to not learn it from a teacher either. As I said earlier, nearly every bass payer that ever lived also did not take lessons from Jeff Berlin. The number of people that have taken lessons from him is probably far, far less than those who have taken lessons in slap as he is only one man. That does not provide any evidence whatsoever that one would not benefit from taking lessons with him, does it?

And it is still an existing contradiction that hasn’t been answered that either nearly all slappers are self taught or lots of teachers are doing a disservice by teaching slap. Both of those can’t exist, period.

 

[Acoustic356]

Nonsense! Forgive my blunt answer, but the only tools (other than the instrument and amp) that any musician needs is knowledge and experience in music, instrument, and styles. You need nothing else to acquire either a career or a satisfying amateur musical experience. Bass players complicate the simple approach to playing which explains why so many bass players struggle with music even after years of playing.

Respectfully, stating something emphatically doesn’t make it true.

I can point to a lot of accomplished musicians who cannot do many f the things on the list I provided, as well as many accomplished music directors that won’t hire you if you lack something me of those skills.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That seems to be a core issue... some fans will support what he's saying even when it clearly presents a logical collapse. That helps no one.

From the first post:

"Exceptions aside, you will find that they all are self taught in these styles".

Except for those who aren't, they all are.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So, saying "for the most part" which is what Jeff meant by including "exceptions aside" doesn't make sense? He started the sentence by saying there are exceptions to what he states after that. Why is that nonsensical?

With his first sentence Jeff is saying that for the most part, people are self taught in the styles he mentioned.

Jeff is merely trying to help. He's not trying to sell his own teaching package, and he's not charging anyone here for his wisdom. He just doesn't want people to pay for classes claiming to help you with playing bass that don't.

I like some of Jeff's music, but I'm not some hardcore fan. I just happen to agree with what he says about the scholastic approach to learning how to play music.

Jeff is saying that you shouldn't have to pay for lessons to learn how to slap because, chances are (see also "exceptions aside"), the person teaching you didn't take lessons to learn how to slap and they certainly didn't invent it. They learned it on their own which means you can too.

What does "all" mean to you? If Jeff doesn't mean to speak in absolute terms he could stop. But he doesn't. Everybody is self-taught actually means something. This is very similar to the Jaco thing decades ago. He said that everyone who played fretless did it because of Jaco. Not most people, everyone... which funnily enough included me. AND if we didn't admit it we were simply lying. Because Jeff knew EVERYONE'S inspiration/motivation. Apparently that was even true for Bill Wyman (clairvoyant?).


I see that hasn't changed. As to your explanation, I'm guess you still don't see the holes in it. By your logic, what should you ever pay for? After all, you can learn anything on your own. Again, being hung up on money and whether or not someone invented something is really odd. And the idea that how someone attained expertise should determine whether or not to learn from them is also extremely odd. What qualification MUST EVERY teacher have?