Jeff Berlin says - Every Slapper and Rocker at NAMM Is Self Taught

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#161
Lownote38 said:
Why is it that there are but a few people that don't understand what Jeff is saying, or find it illogical? Jeff may not have put his thoughts into words perfectly, but I find nothing illogical about what he's saying. What I don't understand is the relevance of how few people have taken lessons from Jeff. If anything, by saying that far more people are taking slap lessons, you're proving his point. People spending lots of money to learn how to slap is basically people wasting their money. There are tons of things that can't be learned on one's own. Think you could learn laparoscopic knee surgery on your own? Brain surgery? Rocket science? Slapping isn't rocket science by the way. It's thumping and pulling on the strings of a bass. Once you watch someone do it, and then listen to song syou like that employ that technique, you're on your way. No money spent.

I would say that hardly anyone who learns slap from a teacher goes on to be a teacher themselves, so I think most of the teachers that give slap lessons are self taught, and they are charging money to try and teach it to other people when that's not necessary.

The above is a statement. I see no contradiction.
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That's simply not true. It's more than a few people that see the issues. Some probably don't want to bother banging their head as usual. I had some free time.

Explain how learning how to slap is a waste of money... because Jeff thinks they should teach themselves instead? Because the teachers are self-taught makes no sense. It's not like there's a certification process for students or teachers.
 
#162
Lownote38 said:
Why is it that there are but a few people that don't understand what Jeff is saying, or find it illogical? Jeff may not have put his thoughts into words perfectly, but I find nothing illogical about what he's saying. What I don't understand is the relevance of how few people have taken lessons from Jeff. If anything, by saying that far more people are taking slap lessons, you're proving his point. People spending lots of money to learn how to slap is basically people wasting their money. There are tons of things that can't be learned on one's own. Think you could learn laparoscopic knee surgery on your own? Brain surgery? Rocket science? Slapping isn't rocket science by the way. It's thumping and pulling on the strings of a bass. Once you watch someone do it, and then listen to song syou like that employ that technique, you're on your way. No money spent.

I would say that hardly anyone who learns slap from a teacher goes on to be a teacher themselves, so I think most of the teachers that give slap lessons are self taught, and they are charging money to try and teach it to other people when that's not necessary.

The above is a statement. I see no contradiction.
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Lots and lots of people wasting their money by taking slap lessons isn’t Jeff’s point. His point was, as he has repeated many times, that almost no one takes lessons in slap so we don’t need to. Those are fundamentally contradictory. Lots of people taking lessons in slap cannot be equated with almost no one taking them. It can’t be explained more simply than that.

The relevance of how few people have taken lessons with him is to show that the correlation of few people taking lessons in something does not equal there being no benefit to taking those lessons. If one is to apply the idea that so few people taking lessons in something means it is without benefit, then it needs to be applied to all things, including lessons with him. Since this is obviously proven false when talking about taking lessons with him, the argument needs to be disregarded in its entirety.

And no, nothing requires a teacher. If that were true, then there would be no teachers, as the first person to teach something would still have had to learn on their own.
 
#163
Lownote38 said:
There certainly were certification processes for the teachers I had in music school, and I had to pass an audition to get into the school. Paying to learn how to slap is indeed not worth paying for in my opinion. I like to understand what I play from a music theory standpoint as it helps me interpret music, understand music, and create music. That is what Jeff is saying is worth paying for.
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So there is a certification process for bass teachers? Is it mandatory?

Was that point also so hard for you to see?


I tried teaching, and I hated it. I couldn't justify charging someone money so I could learn Brown Sugar for them. That's what they literally would ask me to do. I learned Brown Sugar on my own by listening to the recording when I was 13 years old. You don't have to take lessons to learn stuff like that.
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Because that's all someone will ever want to learn? Why do you continue to put up what you did as having some relevance to what everyone else should do?

I spent money on music education that I can actually use to be a faster learner and so I could understand what I'm doing. In my nearly 30 years of playing, no one has asked me to slap in a real world situation. Jeff is an advocate for only paying for what you would need to know in order to be a working musician. I don't put slap techniques, or things of that nature into that category.
That's me. It may not be you. If it isn't, then you don't have to read what Jeff writes, or what I write and then disagree with those things.
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Why didn't you teach yourself? What would you have done if slap were required? Lost a job? So because you've never been called on to slap, no one else should pay a teacher to learn?

Seriously, this just gets deeper and deeper.

BTW You don't have to read what I write either, this is a public forum and you're not doing a very good job of addressing any of this. So there's that. I find contradictions and blind allegiance interesting.
:)
 
#165
Lownote38 said:
You're letting what Jeff said in the past color your judgement of what he says now. Jeff freely admits that he had issues in the past with communication, anger, etc. He's very open about it and he owns it. When I went to one of his clinics that was streamed online, I reminded him of another time we had met nearly 20 years ago. The first thing he was concerned with was whether he was nice to me, or not. He was, and he was genuinely relieved that he wasn't mean to me 2 decades ago. Jeff has a very strong personality, but there is much that can be learned from what he says. Rather than dissect every word (like "all"), take the opportunity to learn from him. He's not here to intentionally anger, or confuse anyone. He genuinely wants to help.
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No I'm not. He's still doing it. You can try to put that on me but that's a pretty obvious fail. In fact, if anyone is letting things get colored it's your stated allegiance to whatever he says. Whether on not it actually pans out logically.

If he didn't mean the absolutes that he states he could address that. Instead he digs in.

He's neither angering nor confusing me, I see exactly what he's saying. And I simply disagree with his contentions. I have the ability to do that. The fretless thing from years ago is something I still look at fondly and laugh about because it was so silly... his strong personality wouldn't allow for facts to enter the conversation. Now, I'm not debating with him, he clearly disagrees with himself on the points I've asked about.

So... the thread title is : Jeff Berlin says - Every Slapper and Rocker at NAMM Is Self Taught

And I disagree. Because it assumes way too much.
 
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#166
Lownote38 said:
Certification? It certainly is necessary to be an effective and legitimate teacher in my eyes. I went to a university music school where every teacher I had went through at least a master's degree in music if not more.
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I guess you need to continue to dodge that one so never mind.

What I've done has no relevance to what everyone else should do. I would never say that it does. I like to play music and understand what I'm playing. I'm not saying other people should do the same unless they want to. If all someone wants to do is slap, I still say that they don't have to pay for it. If they really want to work at it, they don't need a teacher for that. If you disagree, then don't listen to me. :thumbsup:
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What you've done has no relevance but you offer it up for what reason? And you still talk about what others should do.
:D

Why does it have to be all that someone wants to do? Does it make a difference if they want to do that as part of whatever curriculum is offered by their teacher?

I have taught myself a lot of what I know. Slapping is just one of the things I taught myself to do for free. I wouldn't lose the job if I had to slap. It is true that I've never been called on to slap. Probably because it's not 1982, but I could do it if called upon because I taught myself. If people want to save money, they can teach themselves to slap instead of paying someone to teach them (who probably taught themselves to slap).
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And if they want to save time they can find a teacher? You don't get that? And you still won't admit that you don't know how the teacher acquired the skill.

I don't think I've contradicted myself as far as I can tell, and I don't have any blind allegiance to anyone, or anything. What Jeff has said are things I agree with and I came to that conclusion from my own experiences. I certainly don't blindly follow him, or follow him at all necessarily. His passion for music education is something I respect, and I defend what he says for that reason and because I get what he's saying. :)
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Sure you have. So has he. Just reading what the two of you write.
 
#167
Lownote38 said:
I've only offered up what I've done in response to what others say. I'm also not telling others what they should do. Honestly, I feel like I was trying to be an interpreter for Jeff, but that isn't working.

People can do what they want. It's their money. It is my opinion that a teacher wouldn't save time, though.

Like I said in my last post, it's all good. :thumbsup:
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That's cool. I do find the idea that having a teacher wouldn't save time counterintuitive... but I'll just let that hang out there.
 
#168
Lownote38 said:
Okay. You've completely confused me. Your last sentence leaves out an important concept. Take something like Quantum Physics. Someone first discovered something about it, and the next person learned that and then went further. The field is still expanding in this way to the point that it is so complex that teachers are necessary.
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No. If something was so complex that teachers were required to learn it, then one simply would not be capable of learning it. Teachers are not magic. They can help quicken the learning process by doling out information in a more understandable fashion as they are dealing with you directly, but that’s it. Everything that they have to teach is something that they’ve learned. That means that you can learn everything that they learned. Even if teachers were required for the most complex studies on earth, which they aren’t, nothing in music is nearly as complicated. It boils down to the same point- if you are going to disregard something because it can be learned without a teacher, you need to disregard all of the things that can be learned without a teacher. This is obviously a bad way to think.

Jeff's point most definitely wasn't that almost no one takes lessons in slap. Lots of people take slap lessons... from teachers who didn't. So why should we? That was his point. If anything, he's pointing out an oddity in the world of music education as it relates to bass. Why take lessons to learn slap from someone who learned it on their own? If the teacher didn't need a teacher, then neither does the student.
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You either have not paid attention to the numerous times he has said that all slappers are self taught or or trying to dodge it. But he has said it repeatedly (hell, it’s the title of this thread), and it is in direct contradiction to the fact that lots of people take lessons in slap. You can’t have it both ways. Even if that were not the case, it’s still a fallacious manner of thinking, because as I pointed out all things are learned from someone who either learned on their own or were taught by someone who learned on their own down the line.
 
#170
Lownote38 said:
I think you're vastly oversimplifying the concept of what a teacher is for, and also making what Jeff has said overly complex. You are bent on disagreeing, and bent on hanging on a few words that can be argued in some way. A common occurrence on this forum, but that's okay. You don't want to understand the concept that Jeff is putting forward, and that's okay, too. He's not here to argue, and neither am I. I was hoping to help clarify. That isn't happening, so I'll just continue to lurk and read what Jeff says. I'm alright with that. :thumbsup:
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Yup, you got me. I just don’t want to understand it. That must be it.

Adorable :D
 
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#172
#174
Lownote38 said:
I think you're vastly oversimplifying the concept of what a teacher is for, and also making what Jeff has said overly complex. You are bent on disagreeing, and bent on hanging on a few words that can be argued in some way. A common occurrence on this forum, but that's okay. You don't want to understand the concept that Jeff is putting forward, and that's okay, too. He's not here to argue, and neither am I. I was hoping to help clarify. That isn't happening, so I'll just continue to lurk and read what Jeff says. I'm alright with that. :thumbsup:
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That's one way to look at it. It's basically blaming others for something Jeff continues to do on his own.

The other way is to face the fact that Jeff can't have it both ways... but it's abundantly clear at this point that it's not sinking in with you and Jeff just won't admit it.

As far as neither one of you being here to argue... wow.
:D
 
#175
#176
Lownote38 said:
I think about it as though it has sunk in with me, and did so long before I knew Jeff felt the same way that I do. I fail to see a contradiction, but I'm not going to try and convince anyone here of that.
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Seeing the contradiction doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Failing to see it because you want to support Jeff... that's a much deeper issue. If it's actually true that you can make sense of Jeff's blatantly opposing statements, which are by no means complicated...
:meh:
 
#178
Lownote38 said:
What is being called a contradiction is the notion that teachers are teaching slap lessons, yet no one learned to slap from lessons, but rather on their own.
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And that's not a contradiction because...? Fundamentally there are teachers AND no students? That's like barbers in a land with no hair.

What I see is just that the teachers learned on their own, and are now charging money to teach others to slap when they need not take lessons and, instead, do what the teacher did and learn to slap on their own. I also don't think the teachers were "teachers" when they learned how to slap on their own. I learned the technique before I had ever had a bass lesson, and therefore wouldn't want to pay someone to teach me something I can learn without help.
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There's the other disconnect... what couldn't anyone learn on their own? What other technique BESIDES SLAP would be okay for anyone to pay a teacher to teach them? Because paying for teaching seems to be a big deal too.

This comes down to some hang-up about slap that just escapes me. Fingerstyle is a technique. Tapping is a technique. Palm muting is a technique. Picking is a technique. But slap elicits a Pavlovian response from some that is just plain strange.
 
#179
Lownote38 said:
It's not just slap. It's most rock music in general, tapping (as you mentioned), and most techniques actually. Academic knowledge (such as classical and jazz theory as well as learning how to read music) is what a teacher is for.
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I wonder if you actually hear yourself... you've decided what teachers are for... for whom?

I like slapping, so I'm certainly not against it. I just don't think a teacher is needed for it.
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And if someone is struggling with it, they should just persevere? Not seek help?

What I said would be a contradiction if that's what was actually implied. It's not, though, because that isn't what was said originally. I called it a notion. It's how it was interpreted.
I never said teachers and no students. Neither did Jeff. Teachers can teach bass players academic things, and there will be students. There's a LOT to learn from a good teacher.
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Now that's the truly baffling part. The contradiction was not implied, it was plainly spoken. I think at this point I understand the wiggling.

Jeff said teachers and no students. You co-signed on that. Now you deny it. Everyone being self-taught does not allow for students. Does it?
:D

You continue to defend him while pretending he didn't do exactly what he did. That may be the saddest part of this... the enabling.
 
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