No, but they'll have learned and be playing the song while you're scribbling down the tab
The list of old jazz guys that played by ear would fill a great many sheets of paper 
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Jeff Berlin's thought about learning (if this is in your interest to do.)
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The list of old jazz guys that played by ear would fill a great many sheets of paper 
I've started learning Slap in 1978. In 1979, during some regional band competition, I've played one bass-line for the competition by using the Double Thumb Slap technique.
I was young, selfish (some musicians from the local conservatory criticized me using Slap in a Moody song).
Only decade/s later, I've found out that Victor Wooten INVENTED
Suddenly, a year later, I've heard Mark King, but my Double Thumb Slap technique could not produce/imitate Mark's Slapping. It was a DIFFERENT way of Slapping - just a very trained and flexible wrist, plus the thumb.
Please, don't forget the Great Stanley Clarke with his "School Days". It required some brain freedom besides just the Slap technique.
Long story short, I don't like the way Brian Bromberg slaps, but I a very big fan of his Music!
Victor didn't invent double thumb slap technique. His brother did it first on guitar, and then taught it to Victor.
The old jazz guys learned by ear, and for sure it is an aural art-form in comparison to classical music, for example. However, most of the guys after 1950 or so, also could read and write music and understood harmony.No, but they'll have learned and be playing the song while you're scribbling down the tab
Upon what are you basing that “old jazz guys” learned by ear?
Reading sheet music was much more common as it was a primary form of entertainment before people had record players.
Most old jazz guys were reading music when they were 4-5 years old.
No, but they'll have learned and be playing the song while you're scribbling down the tab
I've been numerous times in situations where I needed to play immediately something new, something unknown somewhere in the club, bar, etc...
Anyway.
"Scribbling down" myself the correct TAB (I prefer Standard Notation) while finding the right notes/frets within the given harmony, figuring the fingering while trying to figure out the correct note/s length/s, the correct articulation, etc... is my preferred way of analyzing this or that bass-line (even a bass player).
I have NOTHING against ANY musician who is self-taught or academically-educated.
I'm listening to their Music (even without a bass-line), and that's how I judge the final result, but...
If I need to cooperate, I would like for a musician to know Music language in order to better communicate and exchange ideas.
What was the year that Victor's brother "invented" that Double Thumb Technique?
I really don't want this thread to be derailed by who or who did not 'invent' double thumbing.
Generally speaking, it's quite possible to two people independently arrived at the same invention. See: Multiple discovery - Wikipedia
In the specific case of double thumbing, I'm sure if I put the time in to research it I could find you an example of a medieval lute player who used a similar technique.
Sorry, if my comments about Slap are interrupting the "normal" flow of attacks on Jeff Berlin, going on and on...
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I dont have an academic citation, if that's what you're seeking, however my dad was a tenor player in NYC in the 1960's (through to the late 1990's), and though a college educated musician, he learned most of his jazz craft by ear... transposing solos, learning melodies, and just doing a lot of listening and playing. It is conventional wisdom that the art of jazz is an aural tradition, not a visual or scribed tradition in contrast to classical music, for example. How does one come to know the "language" of bebop, for example...? by ear.... Most guys in the sphere of my father just went to jam sessions/gigs, and played by ear... no "real" books, no charts, no nothing. It's how it was done.
My own experience as a "jazz" bassist follows along the same traverse. I didnt really start to learn/become a jazz musician until I stopped referring to written music, and just started trusting my ear. When I put away the "real" book, when I put away the charts, THATS when I really started to learn jazz. Jazz is a language. It has it's own vocabulary, which itself has unique dialects (if you will). Bebop, fusion, modern, inside, outside... you dont learn that stuff off of a piece of sheet music.
So, I come to know this by observation and experience.
The list of old TalkBass guys that bend your ear would also fill a great many sheets of paper.No, but they'll have learned and be playing the song while you're scribbling down the tab
P.S. I am getting very confused with those two (very similar) Jeff Berlin threads.
A college educated musician-Music theory, harmony, arrangement, music analysis, etc... - a solid foundation of music that helped your Dad to become a Jazz musician.
It’s the same as I would say,
“Some of my friends were able to immediately write down a very complex chord progression “by ear!”. Oh, yes, I need to mention that those friends graduated from the Conservatory with the degree in composition.
I think some of the ramblings here spilled over to the new thread. The titles reflect two very different topics.
To learn to play/perform jazz you dont need to write anything down. This is exactly my point. It's an aural tradition, like folk music. Per your example, why are your conservatory educated friends writing anything down at all? Because that activity is constituent to the educational process, not to the learning of jazz. Jazz was learned by ear from the inception of the music itself through the 80's and into the 90's, until it changed somewhat with the advent of university "jazz education" programs. The education my father (and I) have in music was not a requirement for learning to perform/play jazz and it did not contribute to our success other than to expedite some aspects of our development. In fact, ironically, the education only served to edify and codify what I had already learned by ear; at most it was a validation. Just about every interview I have ever read or seen with a jazz "old timer" has touched on the very phenomena of "jazz education". The very subject is a curiosity to guys like Sonny Rollins or Ron Carter (who was classically trained at Eastman School). I've read the same ghost of a conversation over and over.... "...jazz is not an academic pursuit..." they contend. In fact, they argue that the codification of jazz into formal academic study, in a way, undermines the music. That however could be the topic of an entire dissertation.
Does it help to have the skill set typically associated with a formal education? Probably.. but this is a relatively modern circumstance. Ear training, reading/writing notation, understanding the symbols and language of harmony, these things enhance communication between musicians and facilitate the sharing of ideas, but fundamentally it is not parcel to becoming a complete jazz musician.
By the way, knowing how to read and write music, is in no way analogous to having a complete understanding of harmony, theory, composition and/or arranging. Understanding how to read notation is somewhat rudimentary, and while those guys from the 20' and 30's may have played in big bands or other formal settings where reading music was a requirement, it was not a contributing factor to their assimilation of the jazz idiom and language.
Hello Jeff, honored to meet you in here in cyberland. I just signed up to the this forum so I could get into this great thread. I have only read up to page 8 of the 19 pages and came to the quote above. I think you are nailing your point here. Previously a writer mentioned Amadeus as an example of innate talent vs learning. I was going to take him up on that, Mozart's father was that imposing monster of a man who forced music down Amadeus's throat age (3?) onwards and "made" the genius. Children are sponges and will take in any and everything. It is hard for me to disconnect from self-taught vs school taught when I was started on piano at 6 and learned and performed (with-out metronome) sight read pieces. I dropped that for drums and that due to my inability to gain the extra separation of mental coordination of two hands to two hands and two feet. I do still practice my separation exercise left foot on 1's, right foot on 1's and 3's, left hand quarters, right hand eighths. Great segue to metronome, the point of the clicking box I got taught recently which was the first time I ever used one, is to keep turning OFF the clicks. Turn off in 4/4 turn off 2 of them, turn off 3 off them, turn of 7 off them, etc and see if you can get that time "internalized". The through the damn box away. Count them out loud too to internalize the sound of voice on time. Or recite the Gettysburg address while doing the above hand on knees exercise. It's the mechanical vs the creative which I think is what you are saying too. Learn the mechanics, learn how music works. Wheres the carb? How do you change a tire? Then go drive the Grand Prix. I take lessons one on one still after 50 years and online with a certain Phil M. fellow I think you know. I cherish his lessons good guy. -Pete Z
I think you answered your own question. Victor Wooten was Performing with his family at age (5?). I think?!
It is of course a mis-quote which leads, of course, to a missed conclusion. The quote is "The more we learn ~ The more we realize how little we know." Which is very true. I have 50 years of bass playing and 4 years of college music to prove it. - Pete Z
Being well trained in musical content doesn't mean that you will play your art better. It means that you will play your bass better. There is a big difference between the two.
Nothing in academic music replaces anything in art and style because it was never meant to.
Nothing in academic music replaces anything in art and style because it was never meant to.
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