I have a talented student on BG at a local college who is thinking of dropping out. He doesn't feel that his music courses are teaching what he wants to learn. I can't totally disagree.I had no formal training myself and have had a successful career as a professional player but I don't want to have him necessarily follow my example. We had a frank discussion of what assets he has as well as ones he needs IMO but doesn't have yet and if he would get them in school if he doesn't want to be there. So far we're talking full-time pro and not part timer. I'd appreciate opinions considering what music school can and can't offer to a student in this situation.
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Music School ?
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
School in general must teach you what you need to learn to survive and make a living, not what you want to learn. If one is disciplined enough to teach themselves what they need to work on, they don't need school.
This is one of the issues I would like to have feedback on. In my experience academic musicians may be great players but don't necessarily have the skills or mindset to be actual working professionals. The student I mentioned( on bass guitar) seems to have what I consider the right attitude to be a professional but lacks some essential skills. I learned a fair number of these by experience, but I don't know if that is still the best way or even realistic today. I want to give the best advice I can but can only rely on my own experience when it comes right down to it.
Without knowing what skills your student is lacking, it is difficult to say if school would be beneficial or not. It also depends on the school or the teachers.
I was keeping the discussion more general but the main skill lacking is sight reading of standard notation, which IMO is a necessity. I know some players who are very good but lack this and it works against them for many circumstances. It's a skill that can give a real advantage, especially for guitar and BG players. A player who has good ears and time sense, and is also a good reader, has a leg up IMO. This student has a good knowledge in other areas and the potential to be successful with this additional skill. The school and faculty are a consideration but this student wants to move on, which I can empathize with.
If they have the discipline to work on this by themselves, I think they can succeed. But that is a very individual decision.
I am 100% self-taught and was a pro in the 90ties for a brief period of time. From my experience, you are spot on about being able to sight-read. Opposite to a lot of other areas in my life, I was very committed to playing bass and worked hard on my weaknesses. While I was not able to read difficult or busy parts, I was able to sight-read easy parts and sheets. And I consistently got better at it.
Ultimately, I did a 180 on my career and quit music for a long time altogether. The reason was not a lack of jobs, but I rather realized that being a freelancer was not for me. I felt I needed the security of a steady job. I tip my hat to all the pros out there that work as freelance musicians. There is way more to being a pro than just being able to play a certain part or song.
Thanks for your perspective, Minimalist. I was lucky enough as a freelancer to be able to make a living doing what I enjoyed and felt most temperamentally and musically qualified for. Others may have a different opinion, but I feel reading at the highest level you can do is an essential skill to take advantage of every playing opportunity. It is only one of several, but a very important one.
I have a son that retired out of the Marines, he was attached to their fleet band program. While you aren’t likely to learn a bunch of esoteric BS, at the Armed Forces School of Music, you will learn what you need to be a productive musician.
A couple of other points of interest:
One, a regular paycheck, every two weeks
Housing provided
Transportation is provided
More gigs than you can imagine.
Fellow musicians are on time, prepared and sober.
A real retirement plan
Health care is provided
Possible Reimbursement for prior tuition costs
Free credits towards a college degree
GI Bill
And finally, you are under contract as a musician (minimum commitment 4 years), so you don’t have to worry about being sent to the eastern front if you cuff a note.
Contact an Armed Forces Recruiter for more details.
Thanks for the info. I know many people who have played in military groups and went to the AFSM and it can be great for the right person. I auditioned for the Army many decades ago and decided I at least wasn't one of those people. In spite of that, my audition story is the best and funniest of my military experience.
My son joined the reserves, playing Clarinette, out of school. The band was the busiest of the military bands in Aust. because, at the time, they were the only military band in the Top End. He's still a reservist as 1st Sax after 30 years!
Ultimately he has to find his own path. It may or may not involve being a pro musician.
I can empathize with the feeling that the school is not teaching him what he wants. But too some extent I doubt he knows what he actually needs. If he wants to be a pro musician I think he will be a lot more successful and have more options to change life paths if he gets a formal education/degree. However, I do think society currently seems to hold degrees in very low esteem, and I would be concerned with him racking up a lot of student debt.
My path was in and out of music. I started on viola in 5th grade, crossed to upright around 8th grade, dropped out of music as HS junior to take vocational electronics, and joined a university big band as a HS senior. I never dreamed I would be a full-time pro musician, but somehow I found "my" path.
I originally wanted to be an engineer similar to Agehorse and tried going through the math track at my local junior college. Unfortunately, while I could do the math I feel I have some memory deficits that made progress increasingly challenging.
I was also taking the music courses I thought were important, ear training and theory. The college had shut down the jazz/commercial track the semester I started; so the only option for me was the classical track. On the positive side, tuition was dirt cheap.
For third semester I gave up on math and declared a music major, which meant taking a lot more music classes. I also brushed up on upright and auditioned well enough to get a half scholarship. Many of the required classes were not subjects I was particularly interested in, but I was surrounded by a bunch of peers who were very positive and excited to learn about all things music, and their excitement was contagious.
Somewhere along the way I bought a Real Book and started learning how to read and interpret chord notation. I drew on what I had learned in classical theory and one of the guitar instructors provided mentorship once or twice a week.
I dropped out after third semester, got married, and joined the military as an electronics tech. I enjoyed the job and was good at it, but I really missed music. I continued improving my skills reading chord notation and playing along with recordings. My first assignment was to Turkey. I volunteered to play in a backup band for the base talent show, and that led to the formation of a cover band.
There was a professional military band at my second assignment. I continued reading the Real Book and bought a really crappy Kay upright and started playing through Simandl. Eventually I won an audition and cross trained into the band program. I'll be honest, I was not qualified as most of my peers had BS or MS degrees. Some even had completed their doctorate. But the careerfield had multiple vacancies; so essentially they were desperate enough to offer me a job
.
I worked really hard to develop the necessary skill and had a long and successful career. The job was pretty ideal for my particular interest and skillset. In fact, I doubt there is any other musical path I could have taken to achieve the level of success I had. So I feel very lucky.
Something that I think is really important is a lot of musicians become disillusioned with the job. I knew many fine players who put down their horns and decided to follow a different path. Many of them had a large amount of student debt. However, I think having a degree was an advantage for them.
I can empathize with the feeling that the school is not teaching him what he wants. But too some extent I doubt he knows what he actually needs. If he wants to be a pro musician I think he will be a lot more successful and have more options to change life paths if he gets a formal education/degree. However, I do think society currently seems to hold degrees in very low esteem, and I would be concerned with him racking up a lot of student debt.
My path was in and out of music. I started on viola in 5th grade, crossed to upright around 8th grade, dropped out of music as HS junior to take vocational electronics, and joined a university big band as a HS senior. I never dreamed I would be a full-time pro musician, but somehow I found "my" path.
I originally wanted to be an engineer similar to Agehorse and tried going through the math track at my local junior college. Unfortunately, while I could do the math I feel I have some memory deficits that made progress increasingly challenging.
I was also taking the music courses I thought were important, ear training and theory. The college had shut down the jazz/commercial track the semester I started; so the only option for me was the classical track. On the positive side, tuition was dirt cheap.
For third semester I gave up on math and declared a music major, which meant taking a lot more music classes. I also brushed up on upright and auditioned well enough to get a half scholarship. Many of the required classes were not subjects I was particularly interested in, but I was surrounded by a bunch of peers who were very positive and excited to learn about all things music, and their excitement was contagious.
Somewhere along the way I bought a Real Book and started learning how to read and interpret chord notation. I drew on what I had learned in classical theory and one of the guitar instructors provided mentorship once or twice a week.
I dropped out after third semester, got married, and joined the military as an electronics tech. I enjoyed the job and was good at it, but I really missed music. I continued improving my skills reading chord notation and playing along with recordings. My first assignment was to Turkey. I volunteered to play in a backup band for the base talent show, and that led to the formation of a cover band.
There was a professional military band at my second assignment. I continued reading the Real Book and bought a really crappy Kay upright and started playing through Simandl. Eventually I won an audition and cross trained into the band program. I'll be honest, I was not qualified as most of my peers had BS or MS degrees. Some even had completed their doctorate. But the careerfield had multiple vacancies; so essentially they were desperate enough to offer me a job
. I worked really hard to develop the necessary skill and had a long and successful career. The job was pretty ideal for my particular interest and skillset. In fact, I doubt there is any other musical path I could have taken to achieve the level of success I had. So I feel very lucky.
Something that I think is really important is a lot of musicians become disillusioned with the job. I knew many fine players who put down their horns and decided to follow a different path. Many of them had a large amount of student debt. However, I think having a degree was an advantage for them.
Hard to say.
What is the student saying they are missing? What do they want to learn?
Are they asking to be pushed harder in a more focused area? Or do they have abilities and just want to play?
What is the student saying they are missing? What do they want to learn?
Are they asking to be pushed harder in a more focused area? Or do they have abilities and just want to play?
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Can you list some of the skills he wants or needs to master?
My experience in business (not society in general) is that most employers prefer their candidates to have a four-year degree. It indicates to them that the person has the ability to complete a long-term goal. As a hiring manager I don't agree with this method, but a lot of folks use it as a shortcut to screen people OUT. So there is a fallback value to having a four-year degree, even if you end up in a different field. The question is, is it worth the time, money, and effort? When I was that age, I would have said, "Definitely not!"
Since he's down on school now, I'd encourage him to perform a thought experiment. He could temporarily shift his attitude so he's thinking "as if" he's on board to complete school. Then explore all of the positive aspects of completing school and write them down. I'm talking about doing a bit of a research project. Having discussions with you, finding out whether players in his areas of interest completed school and how it benefited them, talking to people who have regrets both ways, etc. It could help him make a clear-minded decision.
One positive about staying in school is the ability to minor in another area. That could be something complimentary, like math, or something else he's interested in exploring. You're only young once, and being strategic about this would make the most of his education.
I dropped out of college and went back 12 years later to finish my degree. I don't regret dropping out for a moment, since I didn't know what I wanted to do. I am really happy I got my degree the second time around.
Since he's down on school now, I'd encourage him to perform a thought experiment. He could temporarily shift his attitude so he's thinking "as if" he's on board to complete school. Then explore all of the positive aspects of completing school and write them down. I'm talking about doing a bit of a research project. Having discussions with you, finding out whether players in his areas of interest completed school and how it benefited them, talking to people who have regrets both ways, etc. It could help him make a clear-minded decision.
One positive about staying in school is the ability to minor in another area. That could be something complimentary, like math, or something else he's interested in exploring. You're only young once, and being strategic about this would make the most of his education.
I dropped out of college and went back 12 years later to finish my degree. I don't regret dropping out for a moment, since I didn't know what I wanted to do. I am really happy I got my degree the second time around.
At his age, at this point in his "career" he doesn't know what he needs to know. I don't use everything I learned in music school, but I have used a lot of it. If I had only learned what I wanted to learn back then, I would have missed out on a lot. Most people have a complete misconception about the value of a college education. You get so many benefits from being exposed to a lot of things you would never have sought out on your own, you develop discipline, you make relationships, and many other great things you miss if you skip school.
There is no reason that he can't go to college and pursue his career as a full time musician at the same time. I played in bands the entire time I was in college. I got a lot of gigs from people I was in school with through referrals.
There is no reason that he can't go to college and pursue his career as a full time musician at the same time. I played in bands the entire time I was in college. I got a lot of gigs from people I was in school with through referrals.
I went to a music university and used it as an opportunity to:
1. Be in an area where I could actually get work. There are no jobs or opportunities in my local area, so I used uni as an opportunity to get to a big city. It worked! I got lots of gigs!
2. To focus on practice and networking. Even though i had a part-time job while studying, I was able to focus on playing in the other times and not have to worry about anything else.
3. Focused practice. To add to point 2, knowing what to practice and making the most of that time was essential when the rest of my time was at work, at uni, at rehearsal or gigging. Having pros tell you what you should be practicing to get work takes a huge burden off your shoulders because you get good advice from people whose shoes you are essentially trying to fill! I stopped noodling and doing the things I was already good at and focused on areas of improvement.
4. Business Sense. At uni they also taught us about the industry, about copyright, management etc.
5. The opportunities a degree can get you if you want to live abroad. Some countries will only look at your application if you have a degree.
The biggest ones for me though are being in an area where I could actually make money and finding the people I could work with to get that money. If you are a good player and the lecturers see that, they'll offer you work too. Getting 'in' can be difficult but once you are there, and you stay active, and you are easy to work with, the opportunities will come!
1. Be in an area where I could actually get work. There are no jobs or opportunities in my local area, so I used uni as an opportunity to get to a big city. It worked! I got lots of gigs!
2. To focus on practice and networking. Even though i had a part-time job while studying, I was able to focus on playing in the other times and not have to worry about anything else.
3. Focused practice. To add to point 2, knowing what to practice and making the most of that time was essential when the rest of my time was at work, at uni, at rehearsal or gigging. Having pros tell you what you should be practicing to get work takes a huge burden off your shoulders because you get good advice from people whose shoes you are essentially trying to fill! I stopped noodling and doing the things I was already good at and focused on areas of improvement.
4. Business Sense. At uni they also taught us about the industry, about copyright, management etc.
5. The opportunities a degree can get you if you want to live abroad. Some countries will only look at your application if you have a degree.
The biggest ones for me though are being in an area where I could actually make money and finding the people I could work with to get that money. If you are a good player and the lecturers see that, they'll offer you work too. Getting 'in' can be difficult but once you are there, and you stay active, and you are easy to work with, the opportunities will come!
If he just wants to gig in rock and pop bands music school is likely not necessary, especially if he has the discipline to read, transcribe and study, etc. on his own and the whole shebang is bumming him out anyway.
If he’s interested in seriously performing jazz, though, or any sort of rigorous commercial music the community of faculty and classmates pushes you in a way that is difficult to recreate outside of that environment, and is how many of us built our early careers; even if you think the classes themselves are irrelevant (I don’t, but hey, I’m a teacher for twelve hours a week, hardly unbiased there), I think it’s very difficult to make the same argument about the community. Almost everything I did for my first few years as a professional was either directly with someone I went to school or studied with or referred to me by one of them.
If he’s interested in seriously performing jazz, though, or any sort of rigorous commercial music the community of faculty and classmates pushes you in a way that is difficult to recreate outside of that environment, and is how many of us built our early careers; even if you think the classes themselves are irrelevant (I don’t, but hey, I’m a teacher for twelve hours a week, hardly unbiased there), I think it’s very difficult to make the same argument about the community. Almost everything I did for my first few years as a professional was either directly with someone I went to school or studied with or referred to me by one of them.
Since it is relatively common to not appreciate immediate experiences, only appreciating them in hindsight, perhaps a "break" from school might provide some clarity?
When I graduated from high school I had absolutely no interest in higher education. At that time, I had a reasonable amount of musical ability for someone of my age and experience. I was a practicing, taking lessons, working out with older musicians and getting a few gigs, in spite of the fact that overall my training was fairly minimal.
After about 4 years of this, along with working menial low paying day jobs to help support myself, I finally arrived at the conclusion that I needed to improve my skill set in order to fully realize music as a career choice. I also realized that to support myself I would need to move to an area where there was more musical work. So, my life experiences helped change my thinking about the value of buckling down and getting a degree, which I did eventually do.
To put it another way, there's nothing that will drive home the importance of reading than landing a job that requires you to read when that ability is not quite there. Or missing out on the same job because you cannot read.