Music School ?

In my mind (that being what it is), it comes down to the difference between being a player or being a true musician. The first requires skill and talent and not a small amount of luck. After all, there are tons of brilliant players who make a mean cappucino. Being a musician requires the same things, but much more. That “much more” requires significant patience and discipline but opens a door to a much broader world of possibilities.

As a reasonably talented young trombone player I elected not to pursue music school and made something of a living playing horn section work and the occasional AFM job. By contrast, my daughter went to fine music schools and ultimately earned a graduate degree. While I do not regret my choices, her musical world is a far richer place.
 
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Without a degree it is tough to get a music teaching job, especially in todays market. Even if you can land one with connections and and a good reputation, what if you want to move somewhere else? Also what if a hurricane hits your city and just about all the gigs disappear.. then he’ll be glad at least there’s some teaching.
 
I have a talented student on BG at a local college who is thinking of dropping out. He doesn't feel that his music courses are teaching what he wants to learn. I can't totally disagree.I had no formal training myself and have had a successful career as a professional player but I don't want to have him necessarily follow my example. We had a frank discussion of what assets he has as well as ones he needs IMO but doesn't have yet and if he would get them in school if he doesn't want to be there. So far we're talking full-time pro and not part timer. I'd appreciate opinions considering what music school can and can't offer to a student in this situation.

It’s been a while, but the performance track in college is going to be jazz heavy, lots of playing in varies style combos, lots of sight reading, lots of harmony/theory classes and outside stuff like secondary instruments, singing etc.

It also brings networking since the professors and students are existing kind of on the same circuit. Learn where all the jams are in that city, get hooked up with all the pro players (since pretty much the whole scene is jazz) and hope to be solid enough to start getting calls.

I didn’t go all the way with it, but learning from real pros who were doing everything from evening jazz gigs to sessions for Wawa hoagie commercials and touring with national acts was hugely helpful in demystifying technique, how to practice, and how to actually play properly so that I could focus on the other academic parts of music.
 
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As a teacher I get asked about music schools, I usually say this...if you want to specialize in a very specific style like rock, electronic music, production, jazz...than go to a school that specializes in that otherwise you will only be frustrated. I'm a rock/metal guy at heart but I love just learning about music, the history, theory, different instruments, conducting etc. I also wanted to get into education so I chose a school that gave me that and used that to help get me jobs teaching at various schools. Wanting to get into say...electronic music production, you're not going to get that at a typical school like the one I went to.

In summary, I will often say to a student...do you want to learn "music" or "insert style of music here"?. I believe there is a great benefit to just learning "Music". As a metal head coming in to school I learned a lot about the history of music, was exposed to different styles like classical, got to play in the orchestra, jazz band, choir, got to improve my ears and music theory, got to take lessons on piano, guitar and trombone, got to conduct, got to perform recitals, was able to have conversation with the professors about various music topics..etc etc. No one taught me "rock/metal" per se but I was able to use what I learned to expand my mind and it made me a better all around musician.
 
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Nobody's mentioned yet the elephant in the room: cost.

If this student is taking on debt for music school, and hopes to be a full time professional musician, that's a very bad idea. If the schooling is free or nearly so, or being paid for by his parents AND WITHOUT RISK TO THE PARENTS' FINANCIAL STATUS, then the decision can be made purely on the subject matter and its relevance to his anticipated future career path.

Full time professional musicians who make all their living from music-related activities (as opposed to music teachers in a public school) tend to have very low earnings and highly variable earnings. Get out of school at 22, debt free, and want to be a music pro? Fine. Live off ramen noodles and peanut butter sandwiches, get six roomies, tour in a broken down van with five other guys, whatever. You're young and springy, you can live pretty much on air, don't sweat it, if it doesn't work out (and it almost always won't), you can go back to school, get a degree in something where you can earn a living, and you can dine out on your stories of "when I was a full time pro" the rest of your life.

Now consider the same situation, except when you launch at 22 you've got $100,000 (or even more!) debt hanging on you for the rest of your life. You're hosed. That millstone is going to drag you down.
 
There was a thread a few days back about how hard it is to get a resume accepted in the modern algorithmic age.
Many concluded that personal network of colleagues was far more valuable for accessing opportunities
than any resume / job site hacks- me inculded.

The value of a dedicated music school like Berkeley or similar reputation is not really the material -all free online if you look.
(though they will hold your feet to the fire an ds require you to learn )
The real value is the fellow musicians you develop connections with, who will reach out when someone needs a bass player.
Music school is for building your personal network more than anything else, IMHO

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There was a thread a few days back about how hard it is to get a resume accepted in the modern algorithmic age.
Many concluded that personal network of colleagues was far more valuable for accessing opportunities
than any resume / job site hacks- me inculded.

The value of a dedicated music school like Berkeley or similar reputation is not really the material -all free online if you look.
(though they will hold your feet to the fire an ds require you to learn )
The real value is the fellow musicians you develop connections with, who will reach out when someone needs a bass player.
Music school is for building your personal network more than anything else, IMHO

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Have you priced tuition at Berkleee lately? Does the young person in the OP have a two-comma trust fund?

I'm serious. 26 posts and not a one (except mine) references the crushing load of debt that can quickly accumulate for people going into fields that are almost guaranteed to be extremely low-paid with a very low chance of financial success.
 
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Have you priced tuition at Berkleee lately? Does the young person in the OP have a two-comma trust fund?

I'm serious. 26 posts and not a one (except mine) references the crushing load of debt that can quickly accumulate for people going into fields that are almost guaranteed to be extremely low-paid with a very low chance of financial success.

Correct; deciding to be a professional musician is not, strictly speaking, a "wise" financial decision. Astute observation, my good sir. It is not something to be done because it's something you think you might want to do, it's something to be done because you quite simply cannot see yourself doing something else. It's not a decision to be made lightly, however, but it isn't some mercurial absurdity either. I teach college music and not all of my students–hardly any of them, really–go on to be full-time performers, but a hardworking music student that does well in their lessons and classes is a hardworking person that does well professionally. The study of music is the study of creative problem solving, and a degree in music is no more or less valuable than one in any other of the arts and humanities.

I've had music students at my small liberal arts college go on to earn graduate degrees in physics and work at NASA, join the military, join the FBI, attend law school, and (my personal favorite) become the mayor of their hometown. Everyone just getting a business degree and/or realtor's license because those are safe is how intellectual curiosity, creativity and culture die. Learning is good. School is good. And it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong for only the wealthy to be allowed to become artists because it doesn't matter if they don't earn a living doing it.

Going back, the thing I wish I'd been warned about isn't how hard it was to get to a stable place financially, but how turning the thing you love into the thing you depend on for food really does weird things to your head. Should we be all encouraging kids to go into massive debt to do what they love? Certainly not, but they don't all have to go to USC (annual tuition ~$65,000)–they could go to SUNY (~$10,000), instead. I'm of the belief that education should really be free at all levels and ages, but I imagine we're going to have to wait a generation and navigate a few more crises before we get to that point.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
 
This is a great discussion- exactly what I was hoping for. It shows the range of experiences and paths that are available to us as bassists and musicians. The topic of cost of schooling I have discussed with the student, as well as the military option. It's been so long since I had to deal with this type of decision personally that I don't want to imply that I really know what I'm talking about without more specific recent info. I feel for young people as they deal with these questions.
 
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26 posts and not a one (except mine) references the crushing load of debt that can quickly accumulate

Yes the cost of the "best" Colleges is ludicrous
A personal network of contacts can also be built "manually", with effort and time

All the knowledge organized and handed to you at a place of higher learning
can also be acquired "manually", with effort and time

In fact my experience in college was : you get out what you put in.
Some just paid he tuition and coasted, others put in the work and grew much, and were able to get work.

One thing I did get from college was the habit of managing multiple tasks and regularly meeting deadlines, which is useful IRL
I guess also learned dealing with the BS of a bureaucracy - which unfortunately is an important skill for the modern homo sapien.
 
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I have a talented student on BG at a local college who is thinking of dropping out. He doesn't feel that his music courses are teaching what he wants to learn. I can't totally disagree.I had no formal training myself and have had a successful career as a professional player but I don't want to have him necessarily follow my example. We had a frank discussion of what assets he has as well as ones he needs IMO but doesn't have yet and if he would get them in school if he doesn't want to be there. So far we're talking full-time pro and not part timer. I'd appreciate opinions considering what music school can and can't offer to a student in this situation.
Is student currently playing gigs with bands?
 
IMO staying in music school is fine if you are considering maybe going towards a music teaching degree. Otherwise you may be better off out in the music playing world if being a pro player is your goal.
As long as he's in school would recommend he take all the first (labeling/harmony) and second year theory (voice leading/counterpoint) available. Knowing theory is the fastest way to verbily communicate with other players, if they speak the language. And learning to sight read both bass and treble clefs is certainly a positive - altho arguably not essential as a lot of "successful" players don't read as seen over & over. It would seem essential if BG student has desires of being a studio player. It is a skill I'm glad I developed because it is the fastest way to book learn.
 
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Correct; deciding to be a professional musician is not, strictly speaking, a "wise" financial decision. Astute observation, my good sir. It is not something to be done because it's something you think you might want to do, it's something to be done because you quite simply cannot see yourself doing something else. It's not a decision to be made lightly, however, but it isn't some mercurial absurdity either. I teach college music and not all of my students–hardly any of them, really–go on to be full-time performers, but a hardworking music student that does well in their lessons and classes is a hardworking person that does well professionally. The study of music is the study of creative problem solving, and a degree in music is no more or less valuable than one in any other of the arts and humanities.

I've had music students at my small liberal arts college go on to earn graduate degrees in physics and work at NASA, join the military, join the FBI, attend law school, and (my personal favorite) become the mayor of their hometown. Everyone just getting a business degree and/or realtor's license because those are safe is how intellectual curiosity, creativity and culture die. Learning is good. School is good. And it is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong for only the wealthy to be allowed to become artists because it doesn't matter if they don't earn a living doing it.

Going back, the thing I wish I'd been warned about isn't how hard it was to get to a stable place financially, but how turning the thing you love into the thing you depend on for food really does weird things to your head. Should we be all encouraging kids to go into massive debt to do what they love? Certainly not, but they don't all have to go to USC (annual tuition ~$65,000)–they could go to SUNY (~$10,000), instead. I'm of the belief that education should really be free at all levels and ages, but I imagine we're going to have to wait a generation and navigate a few more crises before we get to that point.

I'll get off my soapbox now.
Well, should, could, doesn't pay the rent.

If you decide to go into music as a profession (I'm not talking about Music Ed and being a band director; I'm talking about earning your living as a musician), and you do so without debt, then you can live within your means and you're OK. But if you make that decision and go deeply into debt to faciliate it, it's just like hanging a grand piano around your neck and jumping off into the deep end.

You don't need to sell me on whether a music degree is of value. But in the actual reality of this world we live in, that value's almost completely non-remunerative, if you stay in the field of professional music, as the OP indicates his student wants to do.

Here it is:

Tiny income, no debt, low expenses - sustainable.
Tiny income, high debt - unsustainable.

Should things change in the way education is financed and paid for and how students pursue education after high school and how musicians specifically get their start? Absolutely. But those are questions for ten, twenty, forty years down the road; OP's student is currently wondering what path to pursue, and my point is that if pursuing his path toward a career that's demonstrably a low income path FOR MOST involves large debts, it's a very dangerous path to follow. If debt is not a factor (and neither is his parents zeroing out their retirement funds to pay for his schooling), then he should choose based on all the other factors.
 
I have a talented student on BG at a local college who is thinking of dropping out. He doesn't feel that his music courses are teaching what he wants to learn. I can't totally disagree.I had no formal training myself and have had a successful career as a professional player but I don't want to have him necessarily follow my example. We had a frank discussion of what assets he has as well as ones he needs IMO but doesn't have yet and if he would get them in school if he doesn't want to be there. So far we're talking full-time pro and not part timer. I'd appreciate opinions considering what music school can and can't offer to a student in this situation.
One of the biggest assets in going to bachelor's level university for music is the other students.

From my undergrad experience, the most successful after college were the ones who were most involved & engaged with other students in the music school. They were just making college friends & music friends at the time. But what they were actually doing was building a strong network of (soon-to-be) music professionals.

These were not necessarily the most skilled musicians/composers/producers/engineers in the music school. But most of being a music professional isn't your musical skills. Being the most skilled [fill-in-the-blank] is only a small part of making a living in music.

Even for me personally, i got my current job making in music technology in a weird network of people-connections i made starting at a friend in my Sound Design Masters program, who introduced me to someone, who introduced me to someone, who knew someone who was looking to hire/contract exactly what i was looking to do. Yes i learned a ton in my masters program, and yes i needed to have the tech & music skills & experience to seal the deal of getting that job. But, it was my network of people in the field that got me most of the way there. That network i built by making friends in the program, and helping them with their projects, and being genuinely interested in what creative things they were doing, and then continuing to occasionally message and see how they were doing and what they were working on after the program was over.

--

There is also something to be said about learning what you need to learn, not just what you want to learn. Yes, learning what you want to learn is extremely important too. But if you only learn what you want to learn, there's a whole world of information that you didn't even know you needed to know. Any good music program should have educators with industry experience that can curate what information from the textbook is needed, good to know, not needed, and also what you need to know that's not in the textbook.

Also, most good music programs offer lessons as part of the course, but outside of the course curriculum. Lessons where you can direct your own education and have your instructor work with you to teach you the things you want to learn. My Masters is in Sound Design, but i was able to work with my advisor/head of program to make it very technology focused. I did this by taking classes that focused on that, as well as putting that focus into my assignments regardless of the assignment, while still doing the assignment requirements. But i had to take that initiative myself.

Also also, the student should have an advisor. The student should be able to tell their advisor what it is they want to get out of their music degree, and the advisor should be able to cater their class-load and lessons to help them achieve that. That's their whole job.

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- All that said, do you need to go to college/university for music to become a music professional? No.

- Is there value to going to college/university for music? Absolutely. But you also have to put in the effort to extract the value beyond textbooks and homework.

And in the end, maybe the school this student is attending isn't that great, and they could look into transferring to another school. If the school won't teach them what they want to learn, or what they need to learn, if their advisor isn't helping them achieve their goals, and if they're not building a network of friends-to-be-professional-network, it might be the wrong school for them. They can start contacting people in the music departments at other universities, explain their situation, and want to know if transferring is a good fit.
 
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Teaching music in a public or private secondary school is one of the most demanding jobs in education IMO. The people who do it on a daily basis have my complete respect. I joined a club for professional musicians and educators years ago and at my first meeting I ran into my old high school band director. After thanking him for his years of service I apologized for my and my bandmates' occasional misbehavior. He laughed and said it was part of the job. The man was a saint. As careers in music go, this to me is one of the toughest.
 
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A lot of good posts have saved me a lot of time writing/echoing the same thoughts, to wit...

1. Not knowing WHAT you need to learn, vs. what you want to learn.
2. The incredible value of being surrounded constantly by peers and instructors focused on music. That doesn't happen anywhere else.

One more point that, at least as I've read through the thread, doesn't seem to have been driven home enough, is that there's a VAST difference in requirements for the different "walks of life" that fall under the "professional performing musician" umbrella. Given that the student in question plays bass guitar and is not a strong reader, chances are he or she is not interested in a symphonic career, playing shows, big band stuff, etc., which pretty much leaves rock/pop/indie genres, as most other genres will require either upright bass or high level reading skills, and probably both.

Perhaps a discussion with the student about the differences between a "professional musician," which in my life means a musician who can be called upon to do a wide variety of jobs very well on short notice, and a "performing artist," which to me means someone focused on playing what they want to play and hoping there's enough people interested in their art to make a living at it, is in order. I've had so many piano students come to me over the years, saying things like, "My previous teacher made me practice all these scales and etudes and stuff.... I'm not interested in that...I just want to play jazz and express myself." When I asked them how they planned to express themselves if they only had extremely limited technique and vocabulary, I'd get blank stares. Those students didn't last long with me, unfortunately. You have to master your instrument before you have anything to say, and that takes scales, etudes, and time spent doing things that one may not see the value in immediately.
 
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