Music School ?

Yes. He is also doing some recording and composing. That's why I feel he has the desire and ability to be successful.
Good. Because there’s no substitute for getting out there and doing the work and grinding. There are some things you simply cannot learn in a classroom or private lesson
 
I have a talented student on BG at a local college who is thinking of dropping out. He doesn't feel that his music courses are teaching what he wants to learn. I can't totally disagree.I had no formal training myself and have had a successful career as a professional player but I don't want to have him necessarily follow my example. We had a frank discussion of what assets he has as well as ones he needs IMO but doesn't have yet and if he would get them in school if he doesn't want to be there. So far we're talking full-time pro and not part timer. I'd appreciate opinions considering what music school can and can't offer to a student in this situation.
This is a very interesting question. You sound like a teacher who is really invested in doing the best you can for your student; you are to be commended. I think it is important for students to realize that not everyone can be a full time pro. I am reminded of a story I have heard Lee Sklar tell. A young aspiring bassist told Lee that he wanted to emulate Lee's career. Lee said that in order to that, he needed to go out his dad's garage, build a time machine, and go back to the late 1960's. The point being, what worked for Lee isn't going to work for somebody right now because times have drastically changed. When I was at music school, were were told certain things. One of them was that most of us weren't going to be able to make a living as a professional musician. Another was that some of the best bands and best musicians we were ever going to perform with were the ones that we involved with right now. I appreciated the honesty and the fact I was being treated like an adult. What worked for you and enabled you to be a pro may not be something that would currently work for your student. It is difficult to address the needs of the student if he is unable to articulate them. What are his goals? Is to be a pro whether or not he is poor all his life, or is it to have a career in something so he can make a good living? His reason sounds vague. To be honest, he could ace all of his courses and still not necessarily make it as a pro. Have you spoken to him candidly about your career, how it happened, and whether or not your experiences are relevant to him?
 
One of the biggest assets in going to bachelor's level university for music is the other students.

From my undergrad experience, the most successful after college were the ones who were most involved & engaged with other students in the music school. They were just making college friends & music friends at the time. But what they were actually doing was building a strong network of (soon-to-be) music professionals.

These were not necessarily the most skilled musicians/composers/producers/engineers in the music school. But most of being a music professional isn't your musical skills. Being the most skilled [fill-in-the-blank] is only a small part of making a living in music.

Even for me personally, i got my current job making in music technology in a weird network of people-connections i made starting at a friend in my Sound Design Masters program, who introduced me to someone, who introduced me to someone, who knew someone who was looking to hire/contract exactly what i was looking to do. Yes i learned a ton in my masters program, and yes i needed to have the tech & music skills & experience to seal the deal of getting that job. But, it was my network of people in the field that got me most of the way there. That network i built by making friends in the program, and helping them with their projects, and being genuinely interested in what creative things they were doing, and then continuing to occasionally message and see how they were doing and what they were working on after the program was over.

--

There is also something to be said about learning what you need to learn, not just what you want to learn. Yes, learning what you want to learn is extremely important too. But if you only learn what you want to learn, there's a whole world of information that you didn't even know you needed to know. Any good music program should have educators with industry experience that can curate what information from the textbook is needed, good to know, not needed, and also what you need to know that's not in the textbook.

Also, most good music programs offer lessons as part of the course, but outside of the course curriculum. Lessons where you can direct your own education and have your instructor work with you to teach you the things you want to learn. My Masters is in Sound Design, but i was able to work with my advisor/head of program to make it very technology focused. I did this by taking classes that focused on that, as well as putting that focus into my assignments regardless of the assignment, while still doing the assignment requirements. But i had to take that initiative myself.

Also also, the student should have an advisor. The student should be able to tell their advisor what it is they want to get out of their music degree, and the advisor should be able to cater their class-load and lessons to help them achieve that. That's their whole job.

--

- All that said, do you need to go to college/university for music to become a music professional? No.

- Is there value to going to college/university for music? Absolutely. But you also have to put in the effort to extract the value beyond textbooks and homework.

And in the end, maybe the school this student is attending isn't that great, and they could look into transferring to another school. If the school won't teach them what they want to learn, or what they need to learn, if their advisor isn't helping them achieve their goals, and if they're not building a network of friends-to-be-professional-network, it might be the wrong school for them. They can start contacting people in the music departments at other universities, explain their situation, and want to know if transferring is a good fit.
Another thought that occurred to me...

College is different from schooling before that. For your entire life you're taught by showing up, doing the things they tell you, going home, doing the homework they tell you, and that's it. Prior to college, state standards and state requirements are what they are. Everyone needs to have graduated with an education that meets or exceeds state standards. There's no real autonomy in it. A student is just a cog in an education wheel.

A lot of students show up at college and don't realize they can tell their advisors what they want, what they need, what their goals are, and change things (within reason). This level of self-authority has never existed in their education before and many don't realize they all of a sudden have it. They don't realize they don't have to just take the education given to them, like they always used to. They can also get the education they want from the school too.

But i bet a lot of students need this explained to them. And i bet a lot of students after years of school being something done at them, need to be shown how they can be their own education leader, because they never had in the past. If the school isn't giving them what they want, they can tell the school what they want. That was never an option previously.
 
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Have you priced tuition at Berkleee lately? Does the young person in the OP have a two-comma trust fund?

I'm serious. 26 posts and not a one (except mine) references the crushing load of debt that can quickly accumulate for people going into fields that are almost guaranteed to be extremely low-paid with a very low chance of financial success.
There are plenty of places where you can get a great education without spending $100,000. I went to a community college for two years that had a lot of excellent instructors. The average community college is $5,000 a year, average state school tuition is about $11,000.

I hate the false dichotomy that you have to bankrupt yourself to get a degree.
 
A lot of students show up at college and don't realize they can tell their advisors what they want, what they need, what their goals are, and change things (within reason).


I had some say over electives from 5th-12th grade. I was in my school orchestras from 5th to 10th. For 11th and 12th I was in a 3-hour vocational electronics program. I stayed in HS for a second senior year to complete the vocational program and elected to take soccer, honors physics, and an after school NJROTC class.

The college I attended had shut down the commercial/jazz track of study. I could take any class I wanted, however for a degree it was required to complete all core requirements, which included a certain amount of music and non-music electives. I chose the performance track, but had planned to take methods class for brass and woodwind as electives. From what I remember, cross country qualified as an elective but Trig and Calculus did not.
 
I have a son that retired out of the Marines, he was attached to their fleet band program. While you aren’t likely to learn a bunch of esoteric BS, at the Armed Forces School of Music, you will learn what you need to be a productive musician.

A couple of other points of interest:

One, a regular paycheck, every two weeks

Housing provided

Transportation is provided

More gigs than you can imagine.

Fellow musicians are on time, prepared and sober.

A real retirement plan

Health care is provided

Possible Reimbursement for prior tuition costs

Free credits towards a college degree

GI Bill

And finally, you are under contract as a musician (minimum commitment 4 years), so you don’t have to worry about being sent to the eastern front if you cuff a note.

Contact an Armed Forces Recruiter for more details.
Full-time bass player here, very grateful that I make a fairly reliable living playing music….and that’s only bc I acquired the skills, including sight reading and transcribing, to play pretty much whatever is required, in a whole bunch of genres.

But, as a self-taught musician, the skills were learned slowly, over decades.

These days, schooling’s so expensive; if I were to do it all over again?

If I wanted to start out as a full-time musician nowadays, I’d choose a military band career, in a heartbeat:

I did talk with a recruiter in 1972…Who knows?

Maybe If I’d signed up then, I might’ve had a more successful career—and been able to take less gigs by this point in life!
 
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There are plenty of places where you can get a great education without spending $100,000. I went to a community college for two years that had a lot of excellent instructors. The average community college is $5,000 a year, average state school tuition is about $11,000.

I hate the false dichotomy that you have to bankrupt yourself to get a degree.
very good point. besides- maybe the student's parents have the money to pay for higher education.
 
This is a very interesting question. You sound like a teacher who is really invested in doing the best you can for your student; you are to be commended. I think it is important for students to realize that not everyone can be a full time pro. I am reminded of a story I have heard Lee Sklar tell. A young aspiring bassist told Lee that he wanted to emulate Lee's career. Lee said that in order to that, he needed to go out his dad's garage, build a time machine, and go back to the late 1960's. The point being, what worked for Lee isn't going to work for somebody right now because times have drastically changed. When I was at music school, were were told certain things. One of them was that most of us weren't going to be able to make a living as a professional musician. Another was that some of the best bands and best musicians we were ever going to perform with were the ones that we involved with right now. I appreciated the honesty and the fact I was being treated like an adult. What worked for you and enabled you to be a pro may not be something that would currently work for your student. It is difficult to address the needs of the student if he is unable to articulate them. What are his goals? Is to be a pro whether or not he is poor all his life, or is it to have a career in something so he can make a good living? His reason sounds vague. To be honest, he could ace all of his courses and still not necessarily make it as a pro. Have you spoken to him candidly about your career, how it happened, and whether or not your experiences are relevant to him?
Hi, Micheal,
Thanks for your reply, I was a full time professional player for many years before I got involved in teaching at all but am very glad I did. I enjoy the students and feel I can give them a perspective they won't get elsewhere. The student I mentioned seems to have the ability and desire to succeed as a pro. He's not interested in continuing in school but that's his choice IMO. I try to give the info and various good and bad aspects of such a life from my experience but that theirs would be very different. Others in the thread have mentioned the military option which has many good points and which we discussed, but I have to mention that it's not for everyone, and recruiters can be very persuasive. My (non music) experience was many years ago but I can't believe the culture has changed that much. Others may differ. My feeling is that if the student is motivated and has, or is willing to get, the necessary skills and mindset to be a professional in whatever way, he should at least give it a try. I've been extremely lucky to have the career I've had, but he may be, too.
 
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Full-time bass player here, very grateful that I make a fairly reliable living playing music….and that’s only bc I acquired the skills, including sight reading and transcribing, to play pretty much whatever is required, in a whole bunch of genres.

But, as a self-taught musician, the skills were learned slowly, over decades.

These days, schooling’s so expensive; if I were to do it all over again?

If I wanted to start out as a full-time musician nowadays, I’d choose a military band career, in a heartbeat:

I did talk with a recruiter in 1972…Who knows?

Maybe If I’d signed up then, I might’ve had a more successful career—and been able to take less gigs by this point in life!
In 1972 there was a recruiter chasing me all over the place. The problem was, from what I understand one’s MOS was based on the military’s needs. You may have been signed on as a bassist, but based on needs a one way ticket to Viet Nam was always a possibility. Today, as long as you aren’t a total screw up, your MOS is guaranteed with your enlistment, and re-enlistment. I drew lottery 256 when I turned 18 so I was pretty safe from being drafted as they only had to go up to 150.
 
In 1972 there was a recruiter chasing me all over the place. The problem was, from what I understand one’s MOS was based on the military’s needs. You may have been signed on as a bassist, but based on needs a one way ticket to Viet Nam was always a possibility. Today, as long as you aren’t a total screw up, your MOS is guaranteed with your enlistment, and re-enlistment. I drew lottery 256 when I turned 18 so I was pretty safe from being drafted as they only had to go up to 150.
That's true. I auditioned a few years earlier but word was out about what could happen to bandsmen once you were in. I took my chances and got drafted but didn't have to leave the country-very lucky once again.
 
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Others in the thread have mentioned the military option...it's not for everyone
This is a very important point.

A few related points.
1. Becoming a military member was not an easy transition for me. Basic training is essentially a mind f***.
2. A job in military bands involves more than playing music. Band members perform a wide range of administrative duties that take up about 50% of your time. Culture and commitment to musical excellence varies considerably across band programs in different services (make an informed decision on which best suits your skills and expectations). The amount of focus placed on developing and maintaining actual warfighting skills varies across the services. My service put the most emphasis on musical excellence and the least emphasis on warfighting skills. I was placed on general orders for a tour into a war zone in the 90s. I was also deployed to the middle-east for about 90s day in the 2000s. I completed several levels of combat readiness training. This included computer based study as well as hands on training and participation in drills and combat simulations. For example we were taught to function as a small combat unit called a fireteam. Part of the class involved clearing rooms of combatants in a mockup village with the instructors shooting paint ball rounds at us from concealed locations.
3. The military is changing and getting smaller. This effects potential retirement benefits and it's not completely clear that military bands will continue to exist. So it's not 100% clear that military band is a viable career path.
 
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This is a very important point.

A few related points.
1. Becoming a military member was not an easy transition for me. Basic training is essentially a mind f***.
2. A job in military bands involves more than playing music. Band members perform a wide range of administrative duties that take up about 50% of your time. Culture and commitment to musical excellence varies considerably across band programs in different services (make an informed decision on which best suits your skills and expectations). The amount of focus placed on developing and maintaining actual warfighting skills varies across the services. My service put the most emphasis on musical excellence and the least emphasis on warfighting skills. I was placed on general orders for a tour into a war zone in the 90s. I was also deployed to the middle-east for about 90s day in the 2000s. I completed several levels of combat readiness training. This included computer based study as well as hands on training and participation in drills and combat simulations. For example we were taught to function as a small combat unit called a fireteam. Part of the claliss involved clearing rooms of combatants in a mockup village with the instructors shooting paint ball rounds at us from concealed locations.
3. The military is changing and getting smaller. This effects potential retirement benefits and it's not completely clear that military bands will continue to exist. So it's not 100% clear that military band is a viable career path.
Thank you , Wasnex,
This is the kind of info that needs to be given. I knew guys around my time who had very positive military music experiences and others who got killed. It's still a serious personal commitment of time and energy and submission(for lack of a better word) to a particular type of authority that not everyone thrives on. Also, those who don't read the fine print in their contracts can be in for some unpleasant surprises.
On a lighter note: back in my time a part of the bass MOS was technically tuba. That meant if they needed a tuba player, theoretically you were it. "None of that jazz music ,soldier, you grab that sousaphone and start marching!" I enjoyed playing the tuba, but I can't say I would have cared for that too much.
 
Thank you , Wasnex,
This is the kind of info that needs to be given. I knew guys around my time who had very positive military music experiences and others who got killed. It's still a serious personal commitment of time and energy and submission(for lack of a better word) to a particular type of authority that not everyone thrives on. Also, those who don't read the fine print in their contracts can be in for some unpleasant surprises.
On a lighter note: back in my time a part of the bass MOS was technically tuba. That meant if they needed a tuba player, theoretically you were it. "None of that jazz music ,soldier, you grab that sousaphone and start marching!" I enjoyed playing the tuba, but I can't say I would have cared for that too much.
I believe Army and Navy used to lump bass and tuba together. Pretty sure at least one of them has broken them out into separate specialties...probably between 10-15 years ago.

In the Air Force, bass players are expected to play upright and bass guitar. Not everyone was proficient on upright, especially with the bow. Tuba is a separate shred/specialty. At least one bassist I knew played tuba, but it was not identified as a normal requirement in our training standards.

Currently I believe the Marines have separate specialties for bass guitar and tuba.

Coast Guard only has one band and it is a premiere/special band. Their personal list shows 3 tuba players and a vacancy for string bass. For anyone who is interested: USCG Band Careers
AFAIK this is more of a symphonic band so I would expect a string bass specialist with legit classical chops. However their audition packet shows a requirements for jazz, pop, bass guitar, etc. https://www.uscg.mil/Portals/0/Community/band/pdfs/Auditions/2025 USCG Band Bass Audition Packet.pdf?ver=wFAGC2rxFDgFvk_cq_O9WA==

The other services have a few premiere/special bands, but are mostly field bands. In the Air Force, premiere and field bands are practically separate programs, and there are notable differences between them. There are some administrative linkages at HQ AF level (Pentagon).

I was in the AF field band program.
 
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This is a very important point.

A few related points.
1. Becoming a military member was not an easy transition for me. Basic training is essentially a mind f***.
2. A job in military bands involves more than playing music. Band members perform a wide range of administrative duties that take up about 50% of your time. Culture and commitment to musical excellence varies considerably across band programs in different services (make an informed decision on which best suits your skills and expectations). The amount of focus placed on developing and maintaining actual warfighting skills varies across the services. My service put the most emphasis on musical excellence and the least emphasis on warfighting skills. I was placed on general orders for a tour into a war zone in the 90s. I was also deployed to the middle-east for about 90s day in the 2000s. I completed several levels of combat readiness training. This included computer based study as well as hands on training and participation in drills and combat simulations. For example we were taught to function as a small combat unit called a fireteam. Part of the class involved clearing rooms of combatants in a mockup village with the instructors shooting paint ball rounds at us from concealed locations.
3. The military is changing and getting smaller. This effects potential retirement benefits and it's not completely clear that military bands will continue to exist. So it's not 100% clear that military band is a viable career path.
In the Marines you are combat trained and ready. And yes my son was deployed to Iraq for 6 months. While he was deployed he played ceremonies, and otherwise stood guard at a general’s office. One bomb made it to Al Asad and wiped out a row of latrines that were at the end of the base and not used. The hagie that sen off the RPG used himself as a back stop and had a nice round hole in his mid section.

As for administrative functions, as you move up in rank you are expected to do more administrative work but for more money. Like a Staff Sargent total comp including benefits is around $100k a year.

The last point you made are Military Band viable? Have you been in a band that paid as well that lasted 4 years? That is the minimum employment guarantee if they take you on, and they are still hiring. Besides, you complete your 4 year commitment, the GI bill is there to help you transition to another career.

And oh, by the way, you don’t play just marches. My son was in rock combos for almost 12 years.
 
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The last point you made are Military Band viable? Have you been in a band that paid as well that lasted 4 years?

This is essentially the math I considered a few years before I hit 20. Actually, I was thinking of the difficulty of finding any job that would sustain or improve my living standard.

Here is my comment
So it's not 100% clear that military band is a viable career path.
My point: Things are changing and there is some degree of concern that the band careerfield will be phased out entirely...meaning it may not be possible to do a full career in the band program. If this were to occur, band members would most likely be offered the opportunity to cross train. It's also possible/likely that voluntary separation would be offered. It's also possible that some members would be forced out. There are lot's of factors that come into play.
 
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Hi, Micheal,
Thanks for your reply, I was a full time professional player for many years before I got involved in teaching at all but am very glad I did. I enjoy the students and feel I can give them a perspective they won't get elsewhere. The student I mentioned seems to have the ability and desire to succeed as a pro. He's not interested in continuing in school but that's his choice IMO. I try to give the info and various good and bad aspects of such a life from my experience but that theirs would be very different. Others in the thread have mentioned the military option which has many good points and which we discussed, but I have to mention that it's not for everyone, and recruiters can be very persuasive. My (non music) experience was many years ago but I can't believe the culture has changed that much. Others may differ. My feeling is that if the student is motivated and has, or is willing to get, the necessary skills and mindset to be a professional in whatever way, he should at least give it a try. I've been extremely lucky to have the career I've had, but he may be, too.
I live in Canada, and while there is a military option up here, it is very limited. While I know someone personally who pursued that option (and I believe thoroughly enjoyed it), this person became a member of a military band after many years of playing professionally. In any case, best wishes going forward and I hope your student is successful.
 
This is essentially the math I considered a few years before I hit 20. Actually, I was thinking of the difficulty of finding any job that would sustain or improve my living standard.

Here is my comment

My point: Things are changing and there is some degree of concern that the band careerfield will be phased out entirely...meaning it may not be possible to do a full career in the band program. If this were to occur, band members would most likely be offered the opportunity to cross train. It's also possible/likely that voluntary separation would be offered. It's also possible that some members would be forced out. There are lot's of factors that come into play.
But that is a description of life in the US work force in general. There are NO guarantees. . The average US worker is going to have 8 jobs in their lifetime. I managed about 14 different employers and 4 stints of being self employed over 60 years. In this country the idea you are going to graduate and go to work for Acme Widgets for the rest of your work life is largely a romantic notion.

One last point about the the viability of Military bands, Just about every country has them. Our’s is a national treasure that has been ingrained in our culture since day one. In the Millitary having one at your base of command is a symbol of prestige. Egos will demand them.

While, I agree funding could be cut with the appropriate loss of jobs, it’s my understanding it’s not likely your contract is going to be canceled unless it’s for just cause. Re-enlistment will become more and more difficult as the competition heats up for promotions needed to remain in the corps.
 
Thanks to everyone for your replies. This has been a very informative thread. I will pass on the info and options to my student. It's his decision, of course, but I'm optimistic he'll make it with all the info available.
 
While, I agree funding could be cut with the appropriate loss of jobs, it’s my understanding it’s not likely your contract is going to be canceled unless it’s for just cause. Re-enlistment will become more and more difficult as the competition heats up for promotions needed to remain in the corps.


During the last AF band draw down, good people were actually forced out. This had not happened in previous draw dawns. We saved a drummer by cross training him to a keyboard vacancy. If he had not been skilled on keys, he would have been forced out before reaching retirement. He was a hard worker and an exceptional team player, with little potential to promote to a higher grade where the focus is more on leadership traits. He has since retired.

The philosophy and policy in the Air Force has also shifted towards retaining only the best. Keep in mind best is subjective. They used to give a small amount of cumulative promotion points for Time in Service and Time in Grade (this places a small nominal value on seniority and experience). I believe both of these are gone. Also they have given more power to leaders to influence who gets promoted, meaning your performance and accomplishments carry less weight and office politics carry more. In conjunction with these changes, performance reports have become much less detailed.

On the face, many of these changes seem sensible. But I think they are likely to have a negative impact on the culture over time. In my experience, having only the "best" doesn't always work as effectively as you might think, especially if it degrades esprit de corps and team work.
 
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In 1972 there was a recruiter chasing me all over the place. The problem was, from what I understand one’s MOS was based on the military’s needs. You may have been signed on as a bassist, but based on needs a one way ticket to Viet Nam was always a possibility. Today, as long as you aren’t a total screw up, your MOS is guaranteed with your enlistment, and re-enlistment. I drew lottery 256 when I turned 18 so I was pretty safe from being drafted as they only had to go up to 150.
Yup—that was exactly my fear!!!