my next controversial question!! bass speakers into a marshall straight cabinet??

[DJ Bebop]

I'll leave the technical questions for Andy and Wasnex to figure out, but that was my beginning in those days, so I can only tell you from here today what is was like back in those days . . . . .

So-called 'bass amps' were just that, so-called. Amps themselves and the cabinets and the drivers in them were barely in the 100 watt-ish range, and when the LOUD bands came along (with as someone pointed out earlier, sound reinforcement a similar dream . . . Woodstock scoured the NorthEast for every big MacIntosh power amp that could be had, to run iffy stacks of plywood bins), the amp companies were caught flat-footed. Period. And developing amps and cabinets for bass guitar specifically was in its infancy.

Aside from smooth, recorded bass off Ampeg fliptops (which were next to useless live for anything except a tuxedo, Jazz piano trio in a NICE place), live bass amps were a toss up of whatever you thought might work, and you just had to make do. It wasn't until the advent of the big Acoustics, the SVT's, and the super rare PS300's that makers began to try and put together LOUD and BASS GUITAR in the same sentence. Plus for the average guy playing down that the 19th Hole on Friday and Saturday nights, these were rare and hard to come by . . . .and really expensive, even in the money of those days. Plus remember, SVT's were originally envisioned as a guitar amp.

And basses were half-assed in a lot of ways. I may be the only person you'll ever hear say this, but while I was amazed by his playing, Jack Bruce (especially on the live recordings) just sounded awful, tone-wise. A muddy short-scale EB-something through a creaky Marshall guitar amp just isn't a recipe for success, but . . . . what were his alternatives? Not a lot:

Of course you had Fender Precisions and Jazz Basses. After that, it slid downhill fast, as a lot of the other choices were compromised in one way or another: short-scale, often wonky pickups, a lot of those pickup placements with one at the fingerboard end and the other at the bridge, few string choices (Ric insisted you use their house-brand strings vs. losing your warranty; I never knew if that was really true, but what we all thought), not a lot of string choices. Not a lot of good choices for most of it, really. Coil cords ! !

You just had to make it in loud environments where your rig often could not keep up (I don't know how many times I'd grunt a big bass amp into a stage, only to be killed all night by some guy with a 50-watt single 12 guitar combo), audible unwanted distortion was your constant companion, and it was rare to sound anything like you'd want to, given you're pushing past the redline for 5 hours straight.

. . . . . I often laugh when I read how younger dudes today want that 'vintage' sound, chase after those hoary old monsters we used to have to play through, much less Eastwood making a killing selling re-issue 'Sears catalog' monstrosities like the old Teiscos or Alamos. Lemme outa here ! ! ! !

Let me tell you: It's only some 'fun, vintage-vibey' sort of thing IF you never lived it. But bass guitar was a very new instrument, just invented 15 years earlier in it's useable Fender form, and it took quite a while for the technology to catch up to the players. Of course, it's always been that way for most instruments.


This is why I never, ever complain about ultra-capable 5-pound 800 watt amps and speaker bins that are light years past where I came in, and the same with bass guitars, as well as the rest of the stage, thank goodness.

 

[JW56789]

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Really? Thanks, DJ. I'm here through Sunday night . . . . . Tip Your Waiters ! I'm blushing . . . .

 

[bon viesta]

I'll leave the technical questions for Andy and Wasnex to figure out, but that was my beginning in those days, so I can only tell you from here today what is was like back in those days . . . . .

So-called 'bass amps' were just that, so-called. Amps themselves and the cabinets and the drivers in them were barely in the 100 watt-ish range, and when the LOUD bands came along (with as someone pointed out earlier, sound reinforcement a similar dream . . . Woodstock scoured the NorthEast for every big MacIntosh power amp that could be had, to run iffy stacks of plywood bins), the amp companies were caught flat-footed. Period. And developing amps and cabinets for bass guitar specifically was in its infancy.

Aside from smooth, recorded bass off Ampeg fliptops (which were next to useless live for anything except a tuxedo, Jazz piano trio in a NICE place), live bass amps were a toss up of whatever you thought might work, and you just had to make do. It wasn't until the advent of the big Acoustics, the SVT's, and the super rare PS300's that makers began to try and put together LOUD and BASS GUITAR in the same sentence. Plus for the average guy playing down that the 19th Hole on Friday and Saturday nights, these were rare and hard to come by . . . .and really expensive, even in the money of those days. Plus remember, SVT's were originally envisioned as a guitar amp.

And basses were half-assed in a lot of ways. I may be the only person you'll ever hear say this, but while I was amazed by his playing, Jack Bruce (especially on the live recordings) just sounded awful, tone-wise. A muddy short-scale EB-something through a creaky Marshall guitar amp just isn't a recipe for success, but . . . . what were his alternatives? Not a lot:

Of course you had Fender Precisions and Jazz Basses. After that, it slid downhill fast, as a lot of the other choices were compromised in one way or another: short-scale, often wonky pickups, a lot of those pickup placements with one at the fingerboard end and the other at the bridge, few string choices (Ric insisted you use their house-brand strings vs. losing your warranty; I never knew if that was really true, but what we all thought), not a lot of string choices. Not a lot of good choices for most of it, really. Coil cords ! !

You just had to make it in loud environments where your rig often could not keep up (I don't know how many times I'd grunt a big bass amp into a stage, only to be killed all night by some guy with a 50-watt single 12 guitar combo), audible unwanted distortion was your constant companion, and it was rare to sound anything like you'd want to, given you're pushing past the redline for 5 hours straight.

. . . . . I often laugh when I read how younger dudes today want that 'vintage' sound, chase after those hoary old monsters we used to have to play through, much less Eastwood making a killing selling re-issue 'Sears catalog' monstrosities like the old Teiscos or Alamos. Lemme outa here ! ! ! !

Let me tell you: It's only some 'fun, vintage-vibey' sort of thing IF you never lived it. But bass guitar was a very new instrument, just invented 15 years earlier in it's useable Fender form, and it took quite a while for the technology to catch up to the players. Of course, it's always been that way for most instruments.

This is why I never, ever complain about ultra-capable 5-pound 800 watt amps and speaker bins that are light years past where I came in, and the same with bass guitars, as well as the rest of the stage, thank goodness.

wowza

 

[bon viesta]

I use a '68 slant with Basslites , it's not EA or Eden but it does rock
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tell me more!!!

 

[DJ Bebop]

Really? Thanks, DJ. I'm here through Sunday night . . . . . Tip Your Waiters ! I'm blushing . . . .

I lived through trying to keep up with half stacks or Twins and drums with a B-15 or a Traynor 40 watt head through a Sunn 200s bottom, better but against a half or full stack, not cleanly. I did have a Sunn Model T head but not the cabinetry to get the best from it. I tried running from that sound. Now it's all Darkglass and all with the kids.

I'll get off my porch swing and go inside now and play through my WD 800 and my 1x12 cab, just stay off my lawn

 

[Heroinsheep]

The trick is fitting this Marshall sound in a mix... I have a theory that the old timers made it work because the drumming amplification approach was different back in the day... Not close mic'ing every drum, but rather maybe not having mics on drums at all.. or sometimes like 2 overheads that barely work, thats it... maybe a kick drum?... Mitch Mitchell sounds very small, he was indeed jazz influenced but also he also could never compete with the amps no matter how hard he hit.. that creates a beautiful balance... Even in contemporary psych/blues rock mixes, sadly people tend to lean towards a modern drum recording/amplification approach, even not realizing it at times. Most festivals nowadays all you hear is a huge subby and also clicky bassdrum...

So I tried 70s Marshall Super Bass into 8x10 hoping it would fit... with the wrong Ohm, orgasmic overdrive... Correct Ohm - not so great... didn't fit in the mix either way...

nice thread though, considering trying to play just 1 4x10 Marshall at a gig in the near future...

(or maybe its 4x12 im not sure what it is its old and heavy)

 

[D.M.N.]

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Like even today, Mesa makes a 2 x15 cabinet. It handles 800 watts. From what I understand, it can hang just fine at that 8, all the thump, bump, slice and dice. Not your daddies or in my case, grandpa's 2x15. Yet it's perceived presents in the room may be matched by an old school Sunn 200s 2x15. Just because it's taller and more mids up higher, at less watts.

I will add something that has NOT really been addressed in this thread (and is some what touched on here), is the matter of speaker wattage vs efficiency. Quite often with modern enclosures, yes, they have much higher wattage handling capabilities, in part due to more powerful amplifiers, but wattage does not directly correlate to louder. I have played plenty of more modern cabinets with much higher power handling than the JBL D and K140 2000s cabs I use. And not been terribly impressed by many thus far (personal preference, YMMV). While speaker power has gone up there is a relationship with how efficiently a speaker can handle that power and translate it to volume, and in order to handle that power, often times the efficiency of the speaker is sacrificed. So, let's take a modern 2x15 and modern speakers, vs a 120w amp into 75w 2x15s, they make come out at roughly the same volume. Because those 75w speakers are more efficient, whereas the more modern speakers need to have that higher power to reach an equivalent volume. In some cases I've taken my 2000s and run it through newer cabs (I have used a Mesa 2x15, though I'm not sure if it's the current neo loaded one), and often I have to crank the 2000s to a higher volume on the dial in order to generate the same volume in the room.

Now, are modern amps capable of more volume? Generally yes, however, higher wattage on the amp and speaker does not necessarily mean it will be louder than any other given set-up.

. . . . . I often laugh when I read how younger dudes today want that 'vintage' sound, chase after those hoary old monsters we used to have to play through, much less Eastwood making a killing selling re-issue 'Sears catalog' monstrosities like the old Teiscos or Alamos. Lemme outa here ! ! ! !

Let me tell you: It's only some 'fun, vintage-vibey' sort of thing IF you never lived it. But bass guitar was a very new instrument, just invented 15 years earlier in it's useable Fender form, and it took quite a while for the technology to catch up to the players. Of course, it's always been that way for most instruments.

And you see, this is where I take some issue with responses in this thread, 'cause it comes across as a little condescending. Not to disrespect other people's experience, and it's great if you can cover what you want with smaller light weight amps. But it's not "some 'fun vintage-vibey' sort of thing if you never lived it". I'm not talking about a little Kalamazoo amp, or even Fender's less than stellar bass amp offerings at the time. I still gig with a '69 Sunn 2000s and a '69 Hiwatt, with the matched cabs and original speakers, and sure, that was out of reach of everyone but touring acts those days, but it doesn't discount their quality or abilities. I'll grant you PAs have come a long way, but I still lug this equipment around because of how it sounds and my inability to match that sound quality in newer mass market equipment. It's a little annoying to have it written off as "just going for a vibe" cause I didn't live it in the 1960s. Just cause you feel it's outdated doesn't mean it won't work for others.

And maybe it's context. Certainly you want to take something down to the local bar and play covers, you can use whatever you want. But when I'm playing originals in venues and working in my bands, there's the consideration of how to achieve my tone, how I want, not the most versatile or broadly appealing bass tone, and I'll fully admit that there is an aspect of appearance.

 

[MikePlaysBass]

You’re talking about a sealed cabinet. The speaker specs should tell you what volume of cabinet space each one needs in a sealed enclosure. As long as you’re close to that, you’ll be fine. If it’s a bit smaller, then some damping (fiberglass or batting) will act like a slightly larger box for the purposes of the speaker pushing back against the air behind it. If it’s just too small, the speakers will have to work harder which can cause some heat, performance, or mechanical problems if you push them too hard. Speaker specs can vary, so you may be able to find ones that are suitable for the space you have.

 

[bon viesta]

You’re talking about a sealed cabinet. The speaker specs should tell you what volume of cabinet space each one needs in a sealed enclosure. As long as you’re close to that, you’ll be fine. If it’s a bit smaller, then some damping (fiberglass or batting) will act like a slightly larger box for the purposes of the speaker pushing back against the air behind it. If it’s just too small, the speakers will have to work harder which can cause some heat, performance, or mechanical problems if you push them too hard. Speaker specs can vary, so you may be able to find ones that are suitable for the space you have.

i’m thinking about using eminence beta 12a speakers, which require a recommended .9-1.25 cubic foot of volume. the cabinet is 30 inches wide, 29 inches tall, and 14 inches deep. 4 speakers in there. does that sound good or not??? i don’t know enough about anything to determine if that’s adequate or not

 

[mexicanyella]

Hey @bon viesta, with your interest in using a guitar 4 x 12 for bass you might find this article interesting,

NOMEANSNO article from bass player magazine

in which Rob Wright of NoMeansNo talks a little about playing a P-bass through a Marshall 3530 head and a guitar 4 x 12.

If you don’t already know that band, I’d recommend starting with their album “Wrong” and branching out from there. Lots of their stuff on YouTube and elsewhere. Rob Wright is a bass riff monster. Sometimes the guitarist plays through a PA cabinet, adding a further dose of stickin it to the man weirdness.

 

[bon viesta]

hahaha pair this video up with a picture of a toilet!! wow, talk about farting.

 

[Iristone]

Those were the bass speakers back in the day - tuned to a lower resonant frequency, rated at a lower-than-equivalent-guitar-speaker maximum power. To get that sound, the amp overdrive would be a significant factor too, so a head or pedal designed to sound like a Marshall Super Bass could go a long way in achieving that sound.

 

[MikePlaysBass]

i’m thinking about using eminence beta 12a speakers, which require a recommended .9-1.25 cubic foot of volume. the cabinet is 30 inches wide, 29 inches tall, and 14 inches deep. 4 speakers in there. does that sound good or not??? i don’t know enough about anything to determine if that’s adequate or not

If that’s what the speakers need for a closed cabinet, then you do have enough space. A cubic foot is 12x12x12 which is 1728 cubic inches. .9 to 1.25 would be 1555 to 2160. I’m assuming your measurements are the outside of the cabinet, so figuring the inside as 28x27x12 is 9072 cubic inches. That’s 2268 cubic inches per speaker, so space-wise it’s fine. There’s more to sound than just math, though, so that doesn’t tell you what the cab would sound like, but for those speakers, the size of the box will work.

 

[bon viesta]

If that’s what the speakers need for a closed cabinet, then you do have enough space. A cubic foot is 12x12x12 which is 1728 cubic inches. .9 to 1.25 would be 1555 to 2160. I’m assuming your measurements are the outside of the cabinet, so figuring the inside as 28x27x12 is 9072 cubic inches. That’s 2268 cubic inches per speaker, so space-wise it’s fine. There’s more to sound than just math, though, so that doesn’t tell you what the cab would sound like, but for those speakers, the size of the box will work.

does the cabinet likely require some foam insulation??? i’ve seen those a lot, especially in more diy bass cabinets.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

noel redding. billy cox. andy fraser. jack bruce. what’s the deal with all these guys? they used marshall 4x12 cabinets either primarily or at a time in their career, and at the very least i heard what they sounded like with them. and unlike the bassman 2x12 i was talking about the other day, these guys actually sounded particularly awesome with these amplifiers. the bassman is sort of ambiguous. so would the earth explode if i put eminence speakers with a low volume capability (think basslites) into a marshall style 30x30x14 straight 4x12 cabinet? i know you amp techies have the best intentions in your heart, but please don’t smite me for asking such a dubious question all these questions are sort of my research on what to do with any potential amp set up. if i criss cross and jump around from style to style and question to question it’s just because i’m trying to figure out what’s possible and what’s not.

I'm only at the bottom of the the first page, but I hope someone has mentioned the Thiele Small-Parameters to the OP. This is pretty essential if you want to get bass speakers that will sound good in a specific cab. You need to know the internal volume of the box, plus size, and shape, of any ports that it may have. At that point you can call Eminence speakers, tell them what your doing, give the the info they need and they can recommend various speakers that they make. This could save you a world of hurt, expense, and time instead of just jamming some bass speakers in your box. Otherwise it's going to be a lot of "pig in a poke" speaker swap with a lot of blown or just plain bad sounding speakers.

 

[JW56789]

I will add something that has NOT really been addressed in this thread (and is some what touched on here), is the matter of speaker wattage vs efficiency. Quite often with modern enclosures, yes, they have much higher wattage handling capabilities, in part due to more powerful amplifiers, but wattage does not directly correlate to louder. I have played plenty of more modern cabinets with much higher power handling than the JBL D and K140 2000s cabs I use. And not been terribly impressed by many thus far (personal preference, YMMV). While speaker power has gone up there is a relationship with how efficiently a speaker can handle that power and translate it to volume, and in order to handle that power, often times the efficiency of the speaker is sacrificed. So, let's take a modern 2x15 and modern speakers, vs a 120w amp into 75w 2x15s, they make come out at roughly the same volume. Because those 75w speakers are more efficient, whereas the more modern speakers need to have that higher power to reach an equivalent volume. In some cases I've taken my 2000s and run it through newer cabs (I have used a Mesa 2x15, though I'm not sure if it's the current neo loaded one), and often I have to crank the 2000s to a higher volume on the dial in order to generate the same volume in the room.

Now, are modern amps capable of more volume? Generally yes, however, higher wattage on the amp and speaker does not necessarily mean it will be louder than any other given set-up.



And you see, this is where I take some issue with responses in this thread, 'cause it comes across as a little condescending. Not to disrespect other people's experience, and it's great if you can cover what you want with smaller light weight amps. But it's not "some 'fun vintage-vibey' sort of thing if you never lived it". I'm not talking about a little Kalamazoo amp, or even Fender's less than stellar bass amp offerings at the time. I still gig with a '69 Sunn 2000s and a '69 Hiwatt, with the matched cabs and original speakers, and sure, that was out of reach of everyone but touring acts those days, but it doesn't discount their quality or abilities. I'll grant you PAs have come a long way, but I still lug this equipment around because of how it sounds and my inability to match that sound quality in newer mass market equipment. It's a little annoying to have it written off as "just going for a vibe" cause I didn't live it in the 1960s. Just cause you feel it's outdated doesn't mean it won't work for others.

And maybe it's context. Certainly you want to take something down to the local bar and play covers, you can use whatever you want. But when I'm playing originals in venues and working in my bands, there's the consideration of how to achieve my tone, how I want, not the most versatile or broadly appealing bass tone, and I'll fully admit that there is an aspect of appearance.

Sorry, DMN, I intended no condescension. I always say people should play whatever helps them make their best music that they can, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I think the only 'right answer' is what suits each one of us.

I was trying to reflect on how frustrating FOR ME the amps and axes I dealt with back in those days actually were; as I pointed out the instrument, its amps, even effects were at a very early stage in those days. You're certainly not the only one who may prefer those rigs from those days and that's great, I only meant to reflect for younger cats what it was like, guys with a lot fewer bus rides under their belt than vets like the two of us.
It was a far different world than the many, many choices available now at every price point, back then.

Not everyone remembers only two or three string choices, when effects were Big Muffs or Mu-Trons or the first rack mount blue-face MXR digital, or lugging Acoustics with the preamp head and amp in the bottom of an 18 bin (there's guys reading this that probably have never even seen a 118 bin !), or cords that would rip out at the drop of a hat or high-impedance mics !

Sorry if you felt that, was NOT intended. I forget certain memories tend to vent sometimes . . . .

 

[bon viesta]

I'm only at the bottom of the the first page, but I hope someone has mentioned the Thiele Small-Parameters to the OP. This is pretty essential if you want to get bass speakers that will sound good in a specific cab. You need to know the internal volume of the box, plus size, and shape, of any ports that it may have. At that point you can call Eminence speakers, tell them what your doing, give the the info they need and they can recommend various speakers that they make. This could save you a world of hurt, expense, and time instead of just jamming some bass speakers in your box. Otherwise it's going to be a lot of "pig in a poke" speaker swap with a lot of blown or just plain bad sounding speakers.

do i just call them??? is there a specific place on their website that i should be directed to to do that? would be appreciated!

 

[D.M.N.]

Sorry, DMN, I intended no condescension. I always say people should play whatever helps them make their best music that they can, regardless of what anyone else thinks. I think the only 'right answer' is what suits each one of us.

I was trying to reflect on how frustrating FOR ME the amps and axes I dealt with back in those days actually were; as I pointed out the instrument, its amps, even effects were at a very early stage in those days. You're certainly not the only one who may prefer those rigs from those days and that's great, I only meant to reflect for younger cats what it was like, guys with a lot fewer bus rides under their belt than vets like the two of us.
It was a far different world than the many, many choices available now at every price point, back then.

Not everyone remembers only two or three string choices, when effects were Big Muffs or Mu-Trons or the first rack mount blue-face MXR digital, or lugging Acoustics with the preamp head and amp in the bottom of an 18 bin (there's guys reading this that probably have never even seen a 118 bin !), or cords that would rip out at the drop of a hat or high-impedance mics !

Sorry if you felt that, was NOT intended. I forget certain memories tend to vent sometimes . . . .

All good, I think you nailed it right there with "people should play whatever helps them make their best music that they can, regardless of what anyone else thinks." We certainly aren't in the dark ages any more, and the ability to pick the rig that suits your needs has never been easier (or more complex, given all the options!)

 

[JW56789]

I truly, truly believe that.

I can't tell you how many times when I was younger and convinced I knew it all I'd see a guy with an axe or a rig that just COULDN'T be right, and damn if he wouldn't just kill with it.

Lord knows we're all put in enough boxes in this world, so I utterly and whole-heartedly think that you should be in charge of picking out and playing and using whatever tools help you do the best job, and I've been there that a certain bass or amp just somehow makes me happy just sitting there. Can't ask for any more than that in this damn world.

All the Best,

JW

 

[DavidEdenAria]

I forgot, i have this cheapie Ibanez 4x12 that has Celestion 80 copies in it and is rated at 320 watts.......i ran my Music Man HD-150 thru it for bass and guitar just for kicks.

Running bass thru this rig and always having an EQ on my board, i lowered under 100hz a few notches and let the Newport with 'mudbucker' rip thru it a bit...sounded 'old school' to me......you dont need much below 80hz to get that 'old school sound' and in this case, those Celestion 80 copies sounded decent in that particle board 4x12 (which is solid built btw).

I think i know what the OP is after not wanting 'low low bass' and clanky RW sound....its a darker overdriven sound....but it can be achieved SO many ways with modern bass rigs; EQ's, comps, various dirt pedals.

One other important factor is i run GHS Pressurewounds on my 65 Epiphone Newport (basically a Gibson EB0) and i CAN get clank and do slap with the EQ set right..Im not really a RW guy either but i dont wanna be stuck with only a thumpy LaBella flats sound....the Pressurewounds are an excellent compromise imo...i can nail Andy Fraser sound with the right EQ and picking approach.