Now this is how to find your lead singer...

[PauFerro]

Cool, can you post it or is it private?

To me, as an auditioner, the most important video is one that shows whether the band is any good or not.

It's a private video. I have shared it in PM's before but for the moment, I have to run and don't have the time to dig up the link from Youtube, login, find the right playlist, etcetera.

It essentially covers issues like who I am (part-time, bass player). I select the songs after listening to everyone and giving them broad criteria for what makes a good song. I explain why it has to be this way (the need to sub players without rehearsal on my part). That people can play in multiple bands, but in return, I need a stable, simple repertoire that other players can learn fast, or on the spot at a gig. That I 1099, that people should cooperate with the client (a problem among some musicians), dress standards, when they should arrive and be set up, to budget extra time in traffic, the benefits of working with me (into my network of musicians, subbing opps). Rehearsal is at my place, no where else. Everyone should have own transportation. The need for musicians to be able to read charts -- not play entirely by ear. Commissions for people who book gigs, and if they book a gig for one of the bands I am in, that they are not in yet, they can play the gig with that band. Not to cancel on rehearsal at the last minute with reasons given. An agreement they sign that I can use video and pictures on website even if they leave the bands for any reason.

I got a lot of flak from Tbassers when I first put it out there, generally, the concept of an orientation video. A lot of flak. Accusations of being a dictator, or the use of the term "my bands" -- it seemed that any model other than the purely democratic model was sacriledge to some people. But a few people asked to see the video, watched it, and said it was reasonable.

I find that people actually want to be part of the experience after they watch the video because it shows organization, momentum, experience, and yes, standards and expectations. it also shows that we have gigs on the future.

People who don't want to pursue the audition after seeing the vide - that is fine with me. It means I have averted problems likely to rear their heads later.

All of the items in the video are responses to problems I have run into in the past five or six hears I have been doing this seriously.

 

[guy n. cognito]

It's a private video. I have shared it in PM's before but for the moment, I have to run and don't have the time to dig up the link from Youtube, login, find the right playlist, etcetera.

It essentially covers issues like who I am (part-time, bass player). I select the songs after listening to everyone and giving them broad criteria for what makes a good song. I explain why it has to be this way (the need to sub players without rehearsal on my part). That people can play in multiple bands, but in return, I need a stable, simple repertoire that other players can learn fast, or on the spot at a gig. That I 1099, that people should cooperate with the client (a problem among some musicians), dress standards, when they should arrive and be set up, to budget extra time in traffic, the benefits of working with me (into my network of musicians, subbing opps). Rehearsal is at my place, no where else. Everyone should have own transportation. The need for musicians to be able to read charts -- not play entirely by ear. Commissions for people who book gigs, and if they book a gig for one of the bands I am in, that they are not in yet, they can play the gig with that band. Not to cancel on rehearsal at the last minute with reasons given. An agreement they sign that I can use video and pictures on website even if they leave the bands for any reason.

I got a lot of flak from Tbassers when I first put it out there, generally, the concept of an orientation video. A lot of flak. Accusations of being a dictator, or the use of the term "my bands" -- it seemed that any model other than the purely democratic model was sacriledge to some people. But a few people asked to see the video, watched it, and said it was reasonable.

I find that people actually want to be part of the experience after they watch the video because it shows organization, momentum, experience, and yes, standards and expectations. it also shows that we have gigs on the future.

People who don't want to pursue the audition after seeing the vide - that is fine with me. It means I have averted problems likely to rear their heads later.

All of the items in the video are responses to problems I have run into in the past five or six hears I have been doing this seriously.

I am no fan of the democratic model, so that isn't my objection here. What sort of gigs do you book? High paying corporate, or local bars?

 

[ShadowImage]

They need to go through a professional orientation. All my musicians do that when I bring them on, and I think singers should be no different. Mine is a youtube powerpoint talkover video about 13 minutes long.

In the orientation is that they may have to sing songs that men sang, and other things you expect from them. The sweet spot is before they join the band -- get them to agree to all that stuff, and then they won't balk, or if they do, you can tell them you're not sure why this is a problem as you were very clear this was expected up front.

Also good to have two or three singers on your call list to make sure you can play as many gigs as possible, regardless of schedules, and to make sure the band survives if one moves on for some reason.

Is this before they drink the coolaid or do you audit them first of any negative engrams to heighten their performance ability and unlock untapped potential?

 

[PauFerro]

I am no fan of the democratic model, so that isn't my objection here. What sort of gigs do you book? High paying corporate, or local bars?

it's a mix of festival, wedding, high paying corporate, community and restaurant gigs. In past years we did a couple Mardis Gras parties in February too. I only do the restaurant work when we have low periods and I want to keep some of the musicians working and potentially, stirring up other gigs.

 

[guy n. cognito]

it's a mix of festival, wedding, high paying corporate, community and restaurant gigs. In past years we did a couple Mardis Gras parties in February too. I only do the restaurant work when we have low periods and I want to keep some of the musicians working and potentially, stirring up other gigs.

You'd have to be booking some pretty heavy gigs....all the time....to get me past the giggles caused by asking me to watch a video.

 

[PauFerro]

You'd have to be booking some pretty heavy gigs....all the time....to get me past the giggles caused by asking me to watch a video.

Then you aren't a good fit for my groups then. Your self-vetting by not watching, or not agreeing to the ideas in the video is a leading indicator that it might not be a mutually good experience. You may well end up in conflict with the people in the groups as well. So, a different kind of band might be a better fit for you.

In deciding not to join the suite of groups I have, you would be actually saving me time and energy.

I used the same kind of video in a non-profit I started a year and a half ago to orient volunteers to what we expect of them in the non-profit. (It is a non-musical service organization). Recently, I brought someone I knew well from a different service context onto a project team, and forgot to ask her to go through the intake process/video. I knew her so well, and worked so well with her in other situations, I just plain forgot. And it shows now in some of the mistakes and misfitting kind of behavior she's exhibited. So the video makes a difference.

I will say, that you can poke fun at the video concept, but it generally attracts people to the group, rather than repelling them. People want to know what to expect from the group, from the leader, and what they are getting themselves into. Read the threads in the Band Management thread about various kinds of group conflict. To me, it screams for the need for matched expectations, clear roles for people in the group, and vetting people for their "fit" with the culture of the band. It prevents all kinds of drama.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Then you aren't a good fit for my groups then.

I used the same kind of video in a non-profit I started a year and a half ago to orient volunteers to what we expect of them in the non-profit. (It is a non-musical service organization). Recently, I brought someone I knew well from a different service context onto a project team, and forgot to ask her to go through the intake process/video. I knew her so well, and worked so well with her in other situations, I just plain forgot. And it shows now in some of the mistakes and misfitting kind of behavior she's exhibited. So the video makes a difference.

I will say, that you can poke fun at the video concept, but it generally attracts people to the group, rather than repelling them. People want to know what to expect from the group, from the leader, and what they are getting themselves into. Read the threads in the Band Management thread about various kinds of group conflict. To me, it screams for the need for matched expectations, clear roles for people in the group, and vetting people for their "fit" with the culture of the band. It prevents all kinds of drama.

Anyone with any corporate experience will tell you that training materials such as this do ....very little....to reduce drama in the workplace. To the contrary, when I see it used in this setting, I see more drama than the average band.

 

[PauFerro]

Anyone with any corporate experience will tell you that training materials such as this do ....very little....to reduce drama in the workplace. To the contrary, when I see it used in this setting, I see more drama than the average band.

Not my experience at all -- in band or corporate settings, or in my 22 years of professional business training. I also disagree with the idea that "anyone with corporate experience" would support the position in the quote above. It's simply not consistent with decades of academic and practitioner literature and practice. The Seven S Model (McKinsey), Level 5 Leadership (Harvard), The Art of Leadership (Max Dupree), Leading without Power (Max Dupree) -- they all indicate that having the right people with the right skills and attitudes is one of the key determinants of a powerful set of shared values that drives behavior with little managerial intervention.

When I was learning to be a band leader, there was always a ton of drama -- until I implemented this orientation measure. Getting the right people on the bus is probably one of the most important decisions a person can make to build the right organization. And the video is a very efficient way of making that happen. I sent them a link and ask them to watch it. If they are willing to accept it, then we can go to the next step -- audition. If not, that's OK.

When I graduated from university years ago, a major bank had a similar approach to candidate new hires. I went to one of their orientation sessions and vowed never to apply for a job at that company. The culture was simply not me. Their orientation did me and the people at the bank a major, major favor in saving drama and frustration.

 

[buldog5151bass]

If it works... @PauFerro seems to have a good network of musicians getting paid gigs.

 

[guy n. cognito]

If it works... @PauFerro seems to have a good network of musicians getting paid gigs.

If it works.... with a grand total of 135 gigs under to his credit (per his profile)...the jury is still out.

 

[PauFerro]

If it works.... with a grand total of 135 gigs under to his credit (per his profile)...the jury is still out.

With 20 musicians i paid last year,150 gigs now over 6 years -- trust me it works. For a local semi pro musician with a family, job, going to school, and heavily involved in a non profit and church responsibilities, its enough. Seems to me you just don't like the idea -- and I'm fine with it. As said, the purpose is to filter out musicians who arent a good fit and belong in other bands. And it sounds like you might be one of them. And that is fine. there is more than 1 way to build a house.

 

[JustDavid]

One good point to Pao's video is I would have a good understanding of what is expected from ANY band member; myself included.

Another good point is that band member claims of "What?!? I did NOT agree to THAT!!" are quite easily dealt with.

Some might find the video to be 'overkill' but I bet there are real-life events behind each & every point it addresses.

 

[guy n. cognito]

With 20 musicians i paid last year,150 gigs now over 6 years -- trust me it works. For a local semi pro musician with a family, job, going to school, and heavily involved in a non profit and church responsibilities, its enough. Seems to me you just don't like the idea -- and I'm fine with it. As said, the purpose is to filter out musicians who arent a good fit and belong in other bands. And it sounds like you might be one of them. And that is fine. there is more than 1 way to build a house.

I tend to filter my musicians by talent. Hard to imagine filtering them by their willingness to watch a video. Do you guys have matching polos?

Just kidding. Out of curiousity, are you an academic? What market are you in?

 

[crguti]

ha! These cover bands are always very funny. Like... someone is gonna take them seriously.

 

[buldog5151bass]

ha! These cover bands are always very funny. Like... someone is gonna take them seriously.

Why bring that up? Has nothing to do with the subject, and is wrong. The following play in "cover bands":

- pit musicians in Broadway musicals
- symphonies and chamber orchestras
- concert pianists
- choirs
- most jazz musicians

The next time Yo Yo Ma, Pino Pallidino, Wynton Marcelus, Will Lee, Darryl Jones etc. are at one of your gigs, you can tell them they are not serious musicians. Or you can tell them when you buy a ticket. I am sure you play in front of thousands of paying customers on a regular basis.

 

[PauFerro]

One good point to Pao's video is I would have a good understanding of what is expected from ANY band member; myself included.

Definitely -- it literally stops certain points of conflict that are deal breakers for me. No one suggests we rehearse at their house, forcing me to haul gear and travel in addition to all the other unpleasant admin work I do. No one forces a reperotire on me that will disappear the second they are not available or leave the band. No one forces me to take down all our hard-earned video and recordings if they leave the group on weak terms. They show up on time. They cooperate with clients, and no one expects me to pay their taxes when I mention the 1099. They are civil to me and don't lose their tops.

Another good point is that band member claims of "What?!? I did NOT agree to THAT!!" are quite easily dealt with.

Yep -- Craigslist ads don't cut it it seems. I had two people respond to Craigslist ads before I started this video thing, and both thought nothing about violating the "terms" of their joining the band. After they got comfortable on the perceived democratic model, it was open season. One guy, in the CL ad, knew he would have to play smooth jazz. Major push back after about 4 gigs on that. Blew up at me on a gig about it, and even brought the drummer onside. Another guy promised to do sales, and then refused when I gave him some leads -- even after it was a foregone expectation in the Craiglist ad. All the other stuff in it -- borne out of long hard experience in the beginning. That stuff rarely, if ever happens anymore.

Some might find the video to be 'overkill' but I bet there are real-life events behind each & every point it addresses.

Exactly. If you just make all that stuff up without having experience behind it, it's hard to give the reasons for it all. But when you can give reasons for the policies, it seems reasonable. And taken with the promise of gigs without having to do sales (unless they want to), it is very attractive for the first and second call musicians.

BTW, I don't make the 3rd call and lower musicians watch the video. This is because newcomners tend to accept the culture at first, and they aren't really part of the core experience -- perhaps a gig or two a year. The other people though -- they need that video for my own sanity.

 

[buldog5151bass]

If it works, it works. I might find it a bit unusual when I saw it, since it is more organized than the standard meeting, but it would not stop me from joining up. When the Stones brought in Darryl Jones into the fold, do you think they were any less organized with him (and his management) explaining the relationship, so there was absolutely no misunderstanding as to how he would (and would not) get?

 

[PauFerro]

I tend to filter my musicians by talent. Hard to imagine filtering them by their willingness to watch a video.

It's not based entirely on talent. Technical ability is important within a certain range, but other soft skills are equally important. I look at the balance of the whole. For example, one candidate drummer was a commercial insurance broker. He played rock, but I liked his sales ability (we are jazz). He was attending networking meetings all the time and was a member of several Chambers and industry associations as part of his work -- all paid for by someone else. He snagged a ton of repeat gigs for us at various corporate events, because these business associations like to hire from their membership to create value for the membership fees. I felt like a side man for about 1/3 of our annual gigs at the time, and it was nice.

So, realizing his jazz skills were absent, I trained him to play jazz at my house for a few weeks. There was a drummer who was a session player and performed with a lot of big names like Dizzy Gillespie i could have brought into the first call position at the time, but I chose the rock drummer because he would book gigs. Also, the Dizzy drummer told me all he would contribute were "ideas" about where to get gigs -- not do any sales work. I ran into the Dizzy Gillespie drummer a while ago (three years later), and he was barely gigging because he joined a band that had no salespeople in it. Meanwhile, the group with the rock drummer was as busy as we wanted.

Also, I find the artist types, who are often the most talented, sometimes bring a ton of drama to the group, don't get the business side, lose their tempers, you name it. I had one of those and finally had to let him go, he was so incapable of civility when he wasn't happy about stuff (stuff, which if the video had have been in place at the time, he would have had to accept to join the group, or refuse the position, thus eliminating all that drama).

Am I an academic? Partly. In business. I consider myself a practitioner as well as I have small business interests I do on the side, founded and now lead a non-profit, and have other business interests that require management. My field is business.

Golf shirts! That is funny! One of the musicians I work with showed up at a recording session with the logo of the band on a piece of material, in a beautiful embroidery. She had acquired software and bought a machine for that purpose.

She suggested we get shirts with that logo on it. Although you seem to mock the idea, I was pleased that a) she was committed to the group to make that suggestion b) had invested the time and resources in the machine that does it without anyone asking her. She was apparently very engaged with our group. And frankly, with the kind of upper class stuff we do, black shirts with embroidered group logos on them would actually fit the personality of the band, and our clientelle, very well. And would make good merch for the professional and semi-professional crowds who come to our shows.

At one point, we were at the end of a gig, and she said "this last year has been really hard. I broke up with my boyfriend, and my mother died, but playing jazz with you guys has been the biggest bright spot of the year". The drummer, when she showed up to record a CD on my Tascam hard disk recorder, indicated that if we couldn't get a good recording, he was willing to invest in paying for studio time. Again, signs of strong engagement and commitment to our group.

These things tell me that the principles of engaging people in a group effort, whether in a semi-pro band, a corporation, or a family, were working. The ideas of caring about people's growth, getting the right people on the bus, listening, keeping the momentum going, creating a shared set of beliefs about what is good behavior and not good behavior in the team, all contribute to that. And the video on the intake side was critical to all that.

 

[PauFerro]

If it works, it works. I might find it a bit unusual when I saw it, since it is more organized than the standard meeting, but it would not stop me from joining up. When the Stones brought in Darryl Jones into the fold, do you think they were any less organized with him (and his management) explaining the relationship, so there was absolutely no misunderstanding as to how he would (and would not) get?

It works for me personally. I accept that others may want a free wheeling, democratic culture full of surprises, and all that comes with it. And that a video is too structured, Some might consider that a good thing, but for me, that kind of culture was a recipe for problems for a busy local band.

And by the way, I wouldn't do the video if I didn't have gigs and money on the table. That is what breathes life into the video and gives me the ability to insist on such things. I don't see this working in an originals band with no gigs or a project that is done for love alone.

 

[guy n. cognito]

It's not based entirely on talent. Technical ability is important within a certain range, but other soft skills are equally important. I look at the balance of the whole. For example, one candidate drummer was a commercial insurance broker. He played rock, but I liked his sales ability (we are jazz). He was attending networking meetings all the time and was a member of several Chambers and industry associations as part of his work -- all paid for by someone else. He snagged a ton of repeat gigs for us at various corporate events, because these business associations like to hire from their membership to create value for the membership fees. I felt like a side man for about 1/3 of our annual gigs at the time, and it was nice.

So, realizing his jazz skills were absent, I trained him to play jazz at my house for a few weeks. There was a drummer who was a session player and performed with a lot of big names like Dizzy Gillespie i could have brought into the first call position at the time, but I chose the rock drummer because he would book gigs. Also, the Dizzy drummer told me all he would contribute were "ideas" about where to get gigs -- not do any sales work. I ran into the Dizzy Gillespie drummer a while ago (three years later), and he was barely gigging because he joined a band that had no salespeople in it. Meanwhile, the group with the rock drummer was as busy as we wanted.

Also, I find the artist types, who are often the most talented, sometimes bring a ton of drama to the group, don't get the business side, lose their tempers, you name it. I had one of those and finally had to let him go, he was so incapable of civility when he wasn't happy about stuff (stuff, which if the video had have been in place at the time, he would have had to accept to join the group, or refuse the position, thus eliminating all that drama).

Am I an academic? Partly. In business. I consider myself a practitioner as well as I have small business interests I do on the side, founded and now lead a non-profit, and have other business interests that require management. My field is business.

Golf shirts! That is funny! One of the musicians I work with showed up at a recording session with the logo of the band on a piece of material, in a beautiful embroidery. She had acquired software and bought a machine for that purpose.

She suggested we get shirts with that logo on it. Although you seem to mock the idea, I was pleased that a) she was committed to the group to make that suggestion b) had invested the time and resources in the machine that does it without anyone asking her. She was apparently very engaged with our group. And frankly, with the kind of upper class stuff we do, black shirts with embroidered group logos on them would actually fit the personality of the band, and our clientelle, very well. And would make good merch for the professional and semi-professional crowds who come to our shows.

At one point, we were at the end of a gig, and she said "this last year has been really hard. I broke up with my boyfriend, and my mother died, but playing jazz with you guys has been the biggest bright spot of the year". The drummer, when she showed up to record a CD on my Tascam hard disk recorder, indicated that if we couldn't get a good recording, he was willing to invest in paying for studio time. Again, signs of strong engagement and commitment to our group.

These things tell me that the principles of engaging people in a group effort, whether in a semi-pro band, a corporation, or a family, were working. The ideas of caring about people's growth, getting the right people on the bus, listening, keeping the momentum going, creating a shared set of beliefs about what is good behavior and not good behavior in the team, all contribute to that. And the video on the intake side was critical to all that.

I'm guessing you didn't see the golf shirt thread...

If you think it works, then by all means stick with. As I said above I have a corporate background, do not believe in "democratic" bands, and exclusively play for pay. I completely understand corporate culture, including where it doesn't fit in. While we all do our best to reduce drama in our band lives, to me there's a trade off between no structure and the video/golf shirt concept. With at least 1,000 gigs under my belt over 20 years, I can say with confidence that this concept would scare away talented, professional musicians that would probably assume I was the drama queen for insisting on such measures. My guess is that you would find minimal drama even without such formal measures.