Rhythm help for drummer, band

bumperbass

bumperbass

Jun 19, 2012
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#1
Hey guys, I was talking to a former band mate from the 80's the other day and both of us have spoken before about our common problem.....drummers who can't keep or feel a groove that well and also tend to speed up.
He said his drummer has a beat app on his iphone where he calls up a rhythm and adjusts the beats-per- minute. The drummer has in-ears but the iphone feed comes through the monitors a little. He says it is helping a lot!
This got me to thinking...have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
I was checking out the BeatBuddy. Seems you could program a decent groove fairly quickly and set the BPM before each song in a live situation. Any ideas?
Thanks.
 
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#4
bumperbass said:
I'd like something more than a click track...maybe a hi-hat and a tom hit. His app gives a ch, ch...ch-----ch, ch...ch-----ch, ch...ch. Really simple.
Click to expand...

I don't mean for this question to be snarky. But if your drummer uses a click and keeps good time, why on Earth do you need a tom and high hat sound in your monitor?

That being said, I have filled in with a few up-and-coming Nashville artists. Every one of their drummers had a little personal mixer for their IEMs. One channel had the click track in it and the other had their monitor mix.

Again, if the drummer has a click track and is keeping good time as a result, why does anyone else need it?
 
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#5
two fingers said:
I don't mean for this question to be snarky. But if your drummer uses a click and keeps good time, why on Earth do you need a tom and high hat sound in your monitor?

That being said, I have filled in with a few up-and-coming Nashville artists. Every one of their drummer had a little personal mixer for their IEMs. One channel had the click track in it and the other had their monitor mix.

Again, if the drummer has a click track and is keeping good time as a result, why does anyone else need it?
Click to expand...
. Beat me to it. Whatever he is doing is working. You want to play to HIM. Don't overthink this.
 
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#7
Well, to me there are two things that are important.....timing and groove. Maybe the click track would do it and yes, maybe the rest of the band doesn't need it.
That's why I am asking for opinions. Right now we don't have a click track.
 
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#9
I played in a church group (for a very short while) in which the drummer used the metronome of his electronic drum kit to set the tempo (a couple of measures only) in HIS in-ear monitor , and he was pretty good at keeping it steady. The groove was in his head, hands and feet (as it should be). For better or for worse, the band follows the drummer's lead. As to "our common problem", it might not be as common as you think. Many of us simply won't play with a drummer who can't keep tempo, timing and groove. Been there, done that, ain't doin' it anymore. ;)
 
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#10
bumperbass said:
.have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
Click to expand...

If tempo/rhythm/feel is an band-wide issue, simply discuss it.

I had a drummer (by his own choice) use a Tempo Ref to track the BPM over the course of a song.
All it does is tell you how fast you are playing.

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This unambiguously exposed areas where as a band we unintentionally sped up or slowed down.
Then we had a discussion about whether or not that was what we wanted to do, making it less of an error and more of a choice.
to communicate feel, we shared examples of other songs that capture the feel desired.

But these approaches must be embraced by all. At the end of the day, each musician has to take individual ownership of the beat/feel.
 
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#13
Timing is my big thing. I started out taking drum lessons as a kid and I not only count everything; it's as if I have a metronome in my head. Drummers who are all over with their timing takes away from the band being tight; especially between the bass and drums.

My last drummer was dubbed the human metronome as he never changed speed even with all the transitions in the songs and he sang as well.

My current drummer also plays keyboards and sings simultaneously. The interesting part is that he does not waiver if he is playing and singing but if he is talking while playing drums (as in introducing something) he starts to lose his timing and it drives me crazy sometimes.
 
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#16
Oh geezus, isn't this kinda like the problem with people who only learn to tune with an electronic tuner and can't do it by ear to save their life? As helpful as all our various gizmos can be, IMO if you can't play perfect time and groove by ear, you shouldn't be up there. It needs to be ingrained. Sure it can be learned by hard work with a metronome, but it blows my mind that someone wanting to be a drummer doesn't get this basic fundamental requirement. The other thing of course besides metronome woodshedding is listening to music, lots of it, with a focus on time and groove. After that becomes ingrained, use the onstage gizmos as a convenience not a crutch.
 
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#17
bumperbass said:
This got me to thinking...have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
Click to expand...

Does anyone else show up not knowing how to play the songs properly?
At some point you have to tell the drummer to practice until they're good enough to be in the band.

RustyAxe said:
I played in a church group (for a very short while) in which the drummer used the metronome of his electronic drum kit to set the tempo (a couple of measures only) in HIS in-ear monitor ...
Click to expand...

So basically an automated count-in. That makes sense, in that you can negotiate a tempo with the band that everyone can live with and then nobody can argue if it was faster or slower than agreed on after the fact.

The problem with using a metronome as a click track and letting it go the whole song is that you're restricted to songs that have the same tempo throughout, which is beyond boring.

Or you have to do a more sophisticated sequenced click track that takes (for example) the bridge being 12 bars in 6 at 120bpm while the rest of the tune is in 4 at 110bpm into consideration, which means you have to play the song exactly the same every time. No extending, skipping or repeating sections. That's also boring.

Aaand, any click track that goes through the whole song means everyone in the band has to follow the drummer in lock step, like playing along with a recording, as opposed to there being the kind of push/pull interaction between musicians that is literally what makes music worth doing (for me).

One of my bands used to play this tune:

It's a dead simple song, basically just a single riff in G, but it changes tempo from super slow in the beginning to fast during the solo to slow again by the end. Grooves at several steady tempos in between, then gradual changes from one section to the next. It's crazy fun to play live and impossible with a metronome in the drummer's ear. We used to see how fast we could take it without falling apart, sort of like playing chicken with each other on stage.
 
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#18
Sometimes the song needs some speeding up, in the heat of the moment the beat “accelerates” and it is tough for one musician (even the drummer) in the band to pull everybody back to Earth. The drummer’s function is not to actually be the time keeper, but actually what results of the combination of all the musicians in the band.... like traffic, we all go “with the traffic”

All this to say that acceleration-prone bands will go faster, and the place where the problem will most probably manifest itself will be with the drummer. It could also be that the drummer can’t keep up with time.

My suggestion (in addition to several before) is to record your practices and gigs and spend the time listening to the product. If it is clearly accelerated, render this issue as one of the things all the band has to watch for.

I hope it helps; all the best,
 
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#19
buldog5151bass said:
I remember when Kenny Jones toured with the Who in '82, he was wearing big ear phones.
Click to expand...
Yes, totally sealed, and turned up at 120 DB. The clicks has to be short, sharp and white noise. Otherwise he couldn't follow it, if it wasn't turned up excessively loud. The click (if anyone plays to it) has to be heard over ANYTHING that is put out by you (as a drummer) or anything else on the stage. Since the envelope it short and square you won't damage your hearing actually. If it was a constant note (or white noise) you would go deaf for good within a split second. I've seen people try to play with a metronom on their cell phones and it can't produce enough power. They lose track of it immediately...

The headphones used must be sturdy ones, and not any HiFi to them. You just need to churn out decibels at short bursts on these... Kenny Jones used them in Who's parade numbers "Baba O'Riley" and "Won't get Fooled Again" which has that "sequencer" or "arpeggiator" organ thing recorded onto tape (in those days).

- - - - -

FWIW I would recommend anyone to have their timing down on any instrument before entering any band. You're still a beginner that hasn't seasoned up enough yet...
 
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#20
I know there's auto tune pedals who will fix out of tune vocals live, on the spot, for a dodgy lead singer. Now, if a device came out that did quantization real time acoustically for the drummer...hmmmmm....gas...
 
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