Rhythm help for drummer, band

[MDBass]

IME a solid drummer keeps it groovy either with or without a click track. Equally, a bad drummer, IME struggles both ways. Still can't figure out why so many think a metronome can do the trick. A decent drummer should simply COMMAND the band, either when riding free or when "tied" to a click track syncing to sequenced stuff. There's no such thing as a cure for bad tempo, sorry to say. Any further attempt is expecting miracles to happen. I've observed (and unfortunately had to deal with) clumsy/glitchy drummers. If your drummer can't be the boss without a metronome neither will he with one. When I say command I'm not saying fast, nor acrobatic nor specially proficient in any aspect, just somebody with a normal internal beat (96% of people). Some people don't notice any inability when first starting to play drums (and those around think it's going to get better), next time you check there's Brad Wilk onstage (painful to watch/hear live). Then again, you have Anthony Kiedis singing for a top live act.

EDIT: DON'T do the "click for everyone" thing, ever, it's useless for the rest of the band and probably will feel more intimidating for the drummer than keeping the click to himself.

"Useless"?

Every professional touring band that uses backing tracks or triggered sequencing of any kind has everyone on IEM's with as much click as they'd like.

 

[pwhalen]

Oh geezus, isn't this kinda like the problem with people who only learn to tune with an electronic tuner and can't do it by ear to save their life?

Why is this an issue? Are you actually tuning by ear out loud on stage? Are you worried about an EMP attack?

 

[madbass6]

Hey guys, I was talking to a former band mate from the 80's the other day and both of us have spoken before about our common problem.....drummers who can't keep or feel a groove that well and also tend to speed up.
He said his drummer has a beat app on his iphone where he calls up a rhythm and adjusts the beats-per- minute. The drummer has in-ears but the iphone feed comes through the monitors a little. He says it is helping a lot!
This got me to thinking...have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
I was checking out the BeatBuddy. Seems you could program a decent groove fairly quickly and set the BPM before each song in a live situation. Any ideas?
Thanks.

Succesfull technique ? sure, find a new drummer!

 

[Josh Kneisel]

we always rehearse to a click... it seems to make us all feel it if/when we speed up or slow down at gigs when we aren't using it...

 

[rockinbilly]

Hey guys, I was talking to a former band mate from the 80's the other day and both of us have spoken before about our common problem.....drummers who can't keep or feel a groove that well and also tend to speed up.
He said his drummer has a beat app on his iphone where he calls up a rhythm and adjusts the beats-per- minute. The drummer has in-ears but the iphone feed comes through the monitors a little. He says it is helping a lot!
This got me to thinking...have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
I was checking out the BeatBuddy. Seems you could program a decent groove fairly quickly and set the BPM before each song in a live situation. Any ideas?
Thanks.

If anyone finds the perfect answer, please let me know, my band has gone thru 3 drummers in the last year and I'm extremely frustrated. We are drummer less at present !!!!!!
I don't want to have to stomp holes in the stage all night trying to keep the drummer on tempo / groove !!!!!!!!!
So, do any of you feel a drummer should be offended by being asked to use a click track ???????

 

[rockinbilly]

Correction: Kenny Jones actually has good time. He was getting the sequencer tracks that were important to songs like baba o'reilly and the strings/horns and effects from the songs on Quadrophenia. I get that it didn't (completely) work but having seen the face dances tour with KJ, I rather liked what he brought to the Who.

Mugre

We do Eminence Front to a sequenced track, that's the only song that the drummers stayed true to.

 

[oldcatfish]

Hey guys, I was talking to a former band mate from the 80's the other day and both of us have spoken before about our common problem.....drummers who can't keep or feel a groove that well and also tend to speed up.
He said his drummer has a beat app on his iphone where he calls up a rhythm and adjusts the beats-per- minute. The drummer has in-ears but the iphone feed comes through the monitors a little. He says it is helping a lot!
This got me to thinking...have any of you guys used a successful technique to help keep the drummer and the band with the feel/beat?
I was checking out the BeatBuddy. Seems you could program a decent groove fairly quickly and set the BPM before each song in a live situation. Any ideas?
Thanks.

As a multi-instrumentalist (including drums), I have a strong opinion on click tracks. Playing to a click track usually makes a band sound much tighter. Argue all you want, but it just does. And bands that use in-ear monitors usually have better front of house sound. Usually.

That being said, there are a couple of apps that are very helpful to drummers and other musicians. First there are metronome apps that drop out after a few bars, then come back in...very useful for developing the internal clock that every good musician needs. Another useful app is BPM live that tracks your tempo throughout the song, using the internal mic on your device.

And I agree strongly with the post about knowing the songs well. That goes for every musician, not just drummers.

 

[bikeplate]

Yep. Hire a drummer who can keep time from the get go. Most never improve as the band goes forward. He either has it or he doesnt

 

[Marley's Ghost]

I played in a band where the drummer was a human metronome during rehearsal...and at gigs he was like on meth. I hated that.

My current drummer plays to a click and is a really nice guy. We are in a bromance.

 

[edencab]

Even some pro drummers play to a click track. Most of them have it in their IEMS, some use a flashing light. I remember when Kenny Jones toured with the Who in '82, he was wearing big ear phones.

 

[buldog5151bass]

View attachment 2794767

Remember kids, don't use drugs...

 

[rtav]

In my experience it's honestly just a practice issue. A click track in their monitor can help, especially if the drummer deals with some stage anxiety or something, but ultimately that's not the real issue.

I'm in a band right now that's been together for about a year and a half. In that time we've had 2 excellent drummers and 2 talented but not quite as good drummers. I understand that that's a small sample size, but the difference between all of them (when it comes to rhythm) came down to two major things.

1. Actually practicing, learning, and knowing the ORIGINAL songs really well. The drummers who really took the time to learn the tunes completely are the ones who had no trouble with pushing or driving. Drummers not knowing the tune really is a serious problem. How can you create a good feel if you don't know what the song should feel like to begin with?

2. Knowing how to do fills. This seems obvious, but drummers who seem otherwise very solid, sometimes can't do fills in time. You generally won't notice that the fill is out of time, but when they come back in after, they will suddenly be pulling or driving the song.

THIS +1000

I don't know how many drummers I've played with who were fine with tempo... until the fill. On the other side of the drum fill EVERYTHING accelerates until the song is insanely fast. I recall a drummer who would often come out of the fill playing too fast for the song to even be played.

That didn't last.

For me it's a real litmus test: "OK - you can play the Peart/Portnoy/whoever fill, but what happens to the rest of the song?"

 

[Tony In Philly]

I get the whole click track thing, but what about tempos that need to "breathe"? Most bands that play along with rubato backing tracks the whole time tend to get dull to my ears unless they have some tricks up their sleeves.

I think the ideal drummer can lay it down straight when it needs to be and then ritard and speed up the tempo as the song requires. For example, when a guitarist or another soloist peaks an exciting solo you often want the drums and bass to kick it up maybe just a touch in the right places. Bands that don't know how to do that can get boring and they don't even realize it.

 

[Tony In Philly]

THIS +1000

I don't know how many drummers I've played with who were fine with tempo... until the fill. On the other side of the drum fill EVERYTHING accelerates until the song is insanely fast. I recall a drummer who would often come out of the fill playing too fast for the song to even be played.

That didn't last.

For me it's a real litmus test: "OK - you can play the Peart/Portnoy/whoever fill, but what happens to the rest of the song?"

I liken it to a figure skater that does an amazing spin and then falls on her a$$.

 

[rtav]

On Neal Morse, Randy George, and Mike Portnoy's project, "Cover to Cover," their awesome version of "Pleasant Valley Sunday" accelerates to madness level at a certain point (similar to the Police's "Every Little Thing She Does Is Magic.") On the Morse project, at the end of "Pleasant Valley Sunday," Portnoy says, "There was no regard for the click track once we started punking out."

If Mike freakin Portnoy needs a click track - guess what - your drummer probably does, too.

I've never played with a drummer worth .02 who thought a click track (esp. when recording) was a bad idea.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I get the whole click track thing, but what about tempos that need to "breathe"? Most bands that play along with rubato backing tracks the whole time tend to get dull to my ears unless they have some tricks up their sleeves.

I think the ideal drummer can lay it down straight when it needs to be and then ritard and speed up the tempo as the song requires. For example, when a guitarist or another soloist peaks an exciting solo you often want the drums and bass to kick it up maybe just a touch in the right places. Bands that don't know how to do that can get boring and they don't even realize it.

Worked for the Who, works for Jason Aldean, worked for the Cars, works for a lot of bands.

 

[andruca]

"Useless"?

Every professional touring band that uses backing tracks or triggered sequencing of any kind has everyone on IEM's with as much click as they'd like.

Useless in the context (of trying to deal with a bad drummer). The moral behind my post is: there's no way around a drummer who can't keep tempo, but the way out.

 

[MDBass]

Useless in the context (of trying to deal with a bad drummer). The moral behind my post is: there's no way around a drummer who can't keep tempo, but the way out.

Ah, then agreed.

A drummer who can't keep time is just a guy hitting things while other people are trying to play music

 

[MDBass]

I get the whole click track thing, but what about tempos that need to "breathe"? Most bands that play along with rubato backing tracks the whole time tend to get dull to my ears unless they have some tricks up their sleeves.

I think the ideal drummer can lay it down straight when it needs to be and then ritard and speed up the tempo as the song requires. For example, when a guitarist or another soloist peaks an exciting solo you often want the drums and bass to kick it up maybe just a touch in the right places. Bands that don't know how to do that can get boring and they don't even realize it.

You can still do that with a click, it's called "pushing" or "pulling" as well as a variety of other colloquialisms; the tempo doesn't need to change for the feel of the section to change.

Even if the tempo does need to change, it's quite easy to write a lick map with any tempo or time signature changes that occur within the song

 

[RBrownBass]

The problem with using a metronome as a click track and letting it go the whole song is that you're restricted to songs that have the same tempo throughout, which is beyond boring.

Most of the rock/pop/whatever calls for a bass guitar songs I've heard throughout my life were written with a set tempo in mind. Never fund any of them boring. I did a fair amount of radio listening growing up.

Aaand, any click track that goes through the whole song means everyone in the band has to follow the drummer

Yes, they do.

as opposed to there being the kind of push/pull interaction

gui**** drags, can't be reigned in, so everybody else drags a bit with him. Bassist rushes, doesn't grasp that he's rushing, band gives in and rushes with him.... seen it on stage, and I usually left after one beer.

EDIT: I can't address what your band does, but every single time I hear someone talk about tempi "breathing" and I hear that person play, they're not letting the tempo breathe- they're failing to keep the tempo and calling it "creative".