Starting chord-changes at "the and of 4"

Thunder_Fingers

Thunder_Fingers

Jun 24, 2004
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#1
Hello, Long time since last post from me.

The guitarist in my band have decided that everything sounds better and more agressive when we play each chord-change on the "and of 4" Instead of 1, My question is this:

Do anyone have any experience with this? Is it common practice? do anyone have any examples? I'm having a hard time actually keeping the and of 4 as the first for each chord / Beat.. Maby it's my own timing I should be questioning?

Please ask if my question is unclear, I'm not sure if I understand it myself.
 
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#2
It is VERY frequently used. Used so often that I can't think of any examples, I just feel it and you will, too, once you start listening for it, thinking about it and working on it.

By the way, one can frequently hear stuff even on the radio where everyone doesn't do the anticipation change together. I'm not sure if that is good or bad but it happens and seems to work as I have never thought "damn, that non-synced change is stupid" other than when I'm trying to work out a part and deciding if I should play it on or off the downbeat, lest I get a talkin' to for not playing it as the other people hear the instruments changing.

I bet if you practice for a few minutes each day for a couple of days you'll quickly be able to hear/feel it. By the way, tell your guitarist that if the changes are always the same like that then it will become boring.
 
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#5
RustyAxe said:
Nope. A song starts where it starts. Some songs have an intro that starts mid-(first)measure, but unless I knew more about the why, I'd say your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.
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Well, he says he feels it grooves better, mind you, he writes most of our stuff in Guitarpro where the possibility of pushing the beat as to a human factor has been removed.

and its not like a "pick up", The song starts on one, but every single bar after it is 4 and. (So basicly, my whole problem would be fixed if I threated bar 1 as 7/8.

But ok, then I know that it's a regular occurance, I just couldn't find any literature on it.
 
#6
Thunder_Fingers said:
Well, he says he feels it grooves better, mind you, he writes most of our stuff in Guitarpro where the possibility of pushing the beat as to a human factor has been removed.

and its not like a "pick up", The song starts on one, but every single bar after it is 4 and. (So basicly, my whole problem would be fixed if I threated bar 1 as 7/8.

But ok, then I know that it's a regular occurance, I just couldn't find any literature on it.
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Just a point I forgot to mention for clarity of communication purposes. A change is said to happen on "the and of 4" rather than saying on (the) "4 and." As soon as you say "it changes on 4 and" people are going to be distracted by the 4 itself and wonder if it changes on 4 or if there is some sort of double pulse or wonder if you are not understanding them correctly. Just wanted to clear that up for your ease of discussion with others.
 
#7
Ant Illington said:
Just a point I forgot to mention for clarity of communication purposes. A change is said to happen on "the and of 4" rather than saying on (the) "4 and." As soon as you say "it changes on 4 and" people are going to be distracted by the 4 itself and wonder if it changes on 4 or if there is some sort of double pulse or wonder if you are not understanding them correctly. Just wanted to clear that up for your ease of discussion with others.
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Right! Corrected, Thanks :)

English is not my native language, so direct translation will sometimes happen ;)
 
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#8
Thunder_Fingers said:
....The guitarist in my band have decided that everything sounds better and more agressive when we play each chord-change on the "and of 4" Instead of 1.....
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Anal-retentive, comes to mind... We are not that focused. I groove with the kick drum beat and change chords on the lyric syllable shown on the fake chord sheet music.

But, you gotta do what the MAN says if you want to play in the Man's World.
 
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#9
MalcolmAmos said:
Anal-retentive, comes to mind... We are not that focused. I groove with the kick drum beat.

But, you gotta do what the MAN says if you want to play in his World.
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Nah, I like him, I'm the hard man in this band. :p and It's not something we've sat down to discuss as of yet.

I'm just trying to find out the "real life" use and maby if there's some theory that have passed my head that relates to doing it this way.
 
#16
RustyAxe said:
Nope. A song starts where it starts. Some songs have an intro that starts mid-(first)measure, but unless I knew more about the why, I'd say your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.
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He's saying instead of, for example, 4 G / 4 D, you would have 3.5 + .5 D / 3.5 D + .5 of the next measure's chord. And so on.

It's a common way to propel the beat forward, not a change to where the song "starts" (although to keep with the theme, you might have a grace "and" prior to the proper 4/4 measures starting.)

My band does it on at least 2 songs. And we know what we're doin, to some extent.
 
#17
Rev J said:
It is quite common in Afro Cuban music. Instead of changes being on the one and the three they are quite often on the and of two and the and of 4.

C/S,
Rev J
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in afro cuban its very commonly the and of two and the downbeat of four that is emphasized. its all in the clavé. the and of four is also really common in pop punk kinda stuff. its very exciting to anticipate the down beat with big chord hits, but it can be easily overplayed.
 
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#20
blastoff said:
in afro cuban its very commonly the and of two and the downbeat of four that is emphasized. its all in the clavé. the and of four is also really common in pop punk kinda stuff. its very exciting to anticipate the down beat with big chord hits, but it can be easily overplayed.
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Yeah, tumbao is the perfect thing to point out here. Hardest thing about the tumbao is starting the song on the 1.
 
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