Starting chord-changes at "the and of 4"

[Clef_de_fa]

Should watch this

 

[lavmonga]

I wouldn't do anything "every time" or close to that. Use different chord changes and styles differently in different songs or you'll end up predictable and kind of boring.

 

[RustyAxe]

Again, we all play different genres. I couldn't name one "hair band" or song if my life depended on it. Same for R&B.

 

[bassliner50]

The American standard, "All the things you are" is written where the intro starts on 4+. This is a common timing technique and can be used anywhere throughout the tune in any genre I am aware of. . Some people call it "anticipating" the beat. It serves to add interest and enhanced movement. I would think, you would not want to do it too much though, or it becomes predictable and just an annoyance. But used tastefully......... (you get the idea).

 

[40Hz]

For most popular music, measures serve as guidelines for changes. But I’ve generally found if you just take your change cues from what the vocalist is doing you can’t go too far wrong. Especially since most of the good vocalists don’t hang their phrasing off a metronome or worry about full measures before they make their changes.

 

[mambo4]

It's called "Anticipation" or "anticipated downbeat" and it's commonplace.
( " Syncopation " is a more general reference to emphasizing any off-beats: anyhting not on 1,2,3,4)

My go-to example for anticipation:

 

[jwilson67]

Bands like Green Day use (or at least used to use) that accent on the "and of 4" to give the music that urgency. Overused it can start to get annoying though.

 

[SaucyJackBass]

I have covered several songs that do this. The key is the drummer. If he can maintain the straight 4, and you are are chord changing on the and of 4, it has a whole different feel. It does make turn arounds and lead-ins more clunky, so those songs tend to have straight 8 note patterns.

 

[stringthrough]

It's called composing. The composer decides where chords change (i.e. on the one or the four-and or for that matter anywhere). You change where chords are placed and you've just made the tune your own. Just remember, those in the audience who know the original arrangement may not appreciate the change(s).

 

[h00v3r]

Dude - wait until you find yourself stuck in the middle of a guitarist starting the phrase on the four-and, a drummer starting his phrases on the one, and neither of them has a clue that's what's happening and have no idea what you're talking about when you broach the issue. I'm certain there are at least a couple of people on this thread that know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[h00v3r]

I have covered several songs that do this. The key is the drummer. If he can maintain the straight 4, and you are are chord changing on the and of 4, it has a whole different feel. It does make turn arounds and lead-ins more clunky, so those songs tend to have straight 8 note patterns.

You totally beat me to this point and articulated it much better than I did.

 

[Hahaha]

Bass players can hit both the anticipation and the downbeat of the following measure, but that only works if the drummer does the same thing with the bass drum. I worked with a keyboard player who overdid the pushes, so the drummer and I would play both on most of the pushes while hitting the push without the follow-up downbeat on certain chord changes. I've heard Abe Laboriel do it this way. It helps ground the song, especially on dance music. How well it works depends on the song.

 

[MDBass]

Hello, Long time since last post from me.

The guitarist in my band have decided that everything sounds better and more agressive when we play each chord-change on the "and of 4" Instead of 1, My question is this:

Do anyone have any experience with this? Is it common practice? do anyone have any examples? I'm having a hard time actually keeping the and of 4 as the first for each chord / Beat.. Maby it's my own timing I should be questioning?

Please ask if my question is unclear, I'm not sure if I understand it myself.

It's just an 8th note upbeat.

Starting a chord progression that way is incredibly common, particularly in rock music, and the "push" can definitely make the rhythm more lively; a style like punk might even use that rhythmic push on every single chord change.

Sounds like you just need to work on your subdivisions more

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

The guitarist in my band have decided that everything sounds better and more agressive when we play each chord-change on the "and of 4" Instead of 1, My question is this:

If you were writing the measure in standard notation, would you write it in 7/8?
Thanks

No. There's still four full beats.

Ok, I will play some more.....I know that we hear this in many forms of music. But to clarify what's happening here let me ask if this is what's going on.

Thunder_Fingers:

You are playing a song. The song has 4 beats to the measure and the quarter note gets 1 beat (4/4 time). The song, just as an example and to keep it simple, is a Intro-I-IV-V. The Intro is 1 measure, again as an example. Each I is 1 measure, each IV is 1 measure, and each V is one measure. Again, just an example. OK?

Because you are thinking in the terms of 1-and, 2-and, 3-and 4-and, lets think about it it the terms of 8/8 time. 8 beats to the measure, each eighth note gets one beat.

The 1-and of the 8/8 is equal to the 1 of the 4/4 time. So if you are counting "and's", you are counting eighth notes. Most often the "and" is considered an up-beat and where you would not make regular chord changes. if you are getting 4 full beats while changing on the "and of 4" you are getting something like this as posted above:

He's saying instead of, for example, 4 G / 4 D, you would have 3.5 + .5 D / 3.5 D + .5 of the next measure's chord.

And so on.

This is for a 4/4 time. I would also think of it as 7 + 1 D / 7D + 1 for 8/8 time.

Again, if I was to write this in standard music notation, any measure that change on the 4-and of 4/4 time, I would write as a 7/8 measure and make the chord change on the 1 (downbeat) of the next measure.

thanks for the ramble.....

 

[MDBass]

Could it be a 16th or triple 16th (swing/shuffle) note?



I like mambo4's comment from a recent TB thread.
basslines that end on the upbeat before the next bar?

P.S. mambo4 from Dallas (???) TX(???)

Nope.

The "and" is always an 8th note: 16th notes are "ee" and "uh" subdivisions, regardless of whether straight or swung.

"1 ee and uh, 2 ee and uh" etc.

 

[Frampton]

Bands like Green Day use (or at least used to use) that accent on the "and of 4" to give the music that urgency. Overused it can start to get annoying though.

It’s a common technique, but it needs to be used with discretion. I would hate to hear it in every song.

 

[Sixgunn]

Chord changes can be started anywhere. Depends on how the song is written.

 

[Flippy]

It's even fancier when you use 7/8 time in the last chord measure and change the chord on 1 of the next measure

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Nope. A measure starts where it starts. Some songs have an intro that starts mid-(first)measure, but unless I knew more about the why, I'd say your guitarist doesn't know what he's doing.

It's really easy to start rushing a song when you come in like that consistently. Everybody really needs to be on the same page and really aware of what you are doing to the timing or it will get rushed. Also...you can really screw up people dancing when you do that on everything.

 

[pbass2]

It's signature Keith Richards, that push between 4 and the following 1. Listen to 'All Down the Line' or 'Rocks Off' from Exile on Main Street, just one of many examples of this in the Stones catalog.

What's so great about the Stones (especially from that era) is they wouldn't all do the pushes and whatnot together--Keith might push while Bill and Charlie land on the one, or vice-versa--all very natural and loose. Their music from then has this push-pull, elastic vibe that is so cool, and you rarely hear in modern bands.