The Bass That Changed The World!

#201
bucephylus said:
Out of curiosity, what point are you trying to make? I believe most people know about the Tutmarc instrument; and, as you have said, the Roberts book gives a pretty even handed summary of it.

If you read the Roberts book further, Jim doesn't really treat Fender as anything more or less than what it actually was. That's why I've been a little surprised by some of the posts and continue to encourage people to actually read the book. It's pretty simply what just happened. For the most part.
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I was responding to an earlier post that said it was highly likely that Leo did not know about the Tutmarc bass. My post was describing a scenario which made it highly possible he could have. I was connecting dots.

I need to re-read Roberts' book, as book. I read the serialized version in Bass Player -- the "pre-publication" version. I'm sure there were changes before the book came out.
Roberts clearly whiffed on the Regal Bassoguitar, and I question some of his comments on the origin of roundwound strings; but aside from these things I give him high marks.
 
#202
GretschWretch said:
I was responding to an earlier post that said it was highly likely that Leo did not know about the Tutmarc bass. My post was describing a scenario which made it highly possible he could have. I was connecting dots.
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I see. Thanks.

On that one, I doubt anyone knows for sure; and I'm not sure what difference it would make other than kind of academic curiosity. Things still went the way they did; kind of, one way or the other; don't you think?

The fact that the Tutmarc instrument did not catch on with the Big Band bassists just goes to show that good ideas are necessary but not sufficient; a problem that has been perplexing entrepreneurial engineers for a long time!
 
#203
Just an observation. . . . I would think making electrical instruments the West Coast in the 1940's was a pretty small world, so it's reasonable to assume that everyone involved would have know about everyone else doing the same thing. They didn't exist in a bubble. There were catalogs and adverts in the trade and general press. If you are any good at creating a successful company you know your fellow competitors and Leo had a lot of local musicians dropping by. Information would have been flowing. He knew.

Leo Fender, and his company, designed some fantastic and innovative instruments and amps in an industry that was already a decade old. Charlie Christian was playing electric guitar and electric steel guitars were being played from the early 30's. The new thing Fender did invent was the process to make their instruments on a production line.
 
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#207
bucephylus said:
Out of curiosity, what point are you trying to make? I believe most people know about the Tutmarc instrument; and, as you have said, the Roberts book gives a pretty even handed summary of it.

If you read the Roberts book further, Jim doesn't really treat Fender as anything more or less than what it actually was. That's why I've been a little surprised by some of the posts and continue to encourage people to actually read the book. It's pretty simply what just happened. For the most part.
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You've been pointed out, repeatedly, that those posts were not about the book but a blurb shown on post #24, nor is the whole thread 100% about the book. A book which, unfortunately, not everyone has read and not everyone is going to, and which alone can't make up for years of inaccuracies. I'm actually surprised at your stated belief that most know about Tutmarc's invention. I've had the opposite experience on this forum overall.
the ombudsman said:
Well, I may be wrong, but I think he invented the bolt-on neck and solid bodies. He also invented the double-cutaway body (which is pretty much the standard since then) and the standard 34" bass guitar scale.
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Tutmarc's model 736 bass was actually the first solid-body electric guitar that was not a lap steel. The rest, AFAIK, is correct.
GretschWretch said:
Randall worked for the distributor L. D. Heater
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I didn't know that!
 
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#208
HaphAsSard said:
You've been pointed out, repeatedly, that those posts were not about the book but a blurb shown on post #24, nor is the whole thread 100% about the book. A book which, unfortunately, not everyone has read and not everyone is going to, and which alone can't make up for years of inaccuracies. I'm actually surprised at your stated belief that most know about Tutmarc's invention. I've had the opposite experience on this forum overall.
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You may be correct, and I am just showing my age. The Tutmarc instrument was covered with a VERY high profile in BP magazine, and then further in books, such as the Roberts book. So, I do just take it as a given that a well informed bass player would have that awareness. In any case, there is the reference, which though maybe not perfect, is fairly accurate and easily obtained on Amazon for anyone who actually cares. As to alternate reality types, I can't speak for them.

I see what you are referring to in post #24. But, that's an old Fender advertisement, which has less historical value than dirt. I mean, it's an ad, for gosh sakes. IMO, having a healthy enthusiasm for Fender while being aware of the actual history are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are pretty much reinforcing. Don't you think? But, it is good to be aware.
 
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#209
Touching on several posts here: I agree that whether Leo knew of the Tutmarc instrument pre-P bass is moot; in the application, whether he knew or not makes no difference. The P bass is what it is. As to influences, bolt-on necks, cutaways, etc. -- we need to look as well at things like Paul Bigsby's early guitars. There is a FINE periodical titled Fretboard Journal which, though wildly guitar-centric, can be a mother-lode of obscure nuggets regarding the history of the instrument(s), including discovery and development.

As I recall, the Tutmarc bass got press in BP and Vintage Guitar and maybe a couple of more general publications, which articles may be surfaceable on the web. Most people would have learned of Roberts' book through BP or GP -- still a fairly specialized niche audience. Not sure how much of the general populace would have known of either the book or the Tutmarc.
 
#210
bucephylus said:
I see. Thanks.

On that one, I doubt anyone knows for sure; and I'm not sure what difference it would make other than kind of academic curiosity. Things still went the way they did; kind of, one way or the other; don't you think?

The fact that the Tutmarc instrument did not catch on with the Big Band bassists just goes to show that good ideas are necessary but not sufficient; a problem that has been perplexing entrepreneurial engineers for a long time!
Click to expand...

Well, if the Tutmarc had caught on, supply could not have kept up with demand. Paul Tutmarc was far more of a tinker and academic curiosity guy than he was an enterpreneur. And even the Fender did not catch on immediately with the jazzers. It was the rockabilly and proto-rock bassists that first gravitated to it. I postulate that the P did not gain wide acceptance until it was into its third generation.

There are Youtube videos of two users of the first-generation Precision. One is well-known: the Lionel Hampton band with Monk Montgomery. The other is Freddy Bell and the Bellmen (or Bellhops), who appeared in the film Rock around the Clock. IMO neither band is trying very hard to make the P sound like an upright.
 
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#212
GretschWretch said:
Well, if the Tutmarc had caught on, supply could not have kept up with demand. Paul Tutmarc was far more of a tinker and academic curiosity guy than he was an enterpreneur. And even the Fender did not catch on immediately with the jazzers. It was the rockabilly and proto-rock bassists that first gravitated to it. I postulate that the P did not gain wide acceptance until it was into its third generation.

There are Youtube videos of two users of the first-generation Precision. One is well-known: the Lionel Hampton band with Monk Montgomery. The other is Freddy Bell and the Bellmen (or Bellhops), who appeared in the film Rock around the Clock. IMO neither band is trying very hard to make the P sound like an upright.
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+1
 
#216
Gravedigger Dav said:
The reason Paul wasn't playing a Fender was because he couldn't afford one. Charlie Watts, I don't know. Maybe he was too stoned to realize he wasn't playing a Fender.
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The reason Paul wasn't playing a Fender was because he couldn't get one. When he bought the Hofner (and granted, it was cheap), much of Europe still was struggling to right a post-war economy. About the only American marque available to Brits was Epiphone, thanks to a distribution arrangement with Selmer of Paris.

And then there is the matter of left-handedness. Would Paul have known he could get a lefty Fender? In 1962?
 
#219
the ombudsman said:
double-cutaway body
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GretschWretch said:
cutaways, etc. -- we need to look as well at things like Paul Bigsby's early guitars.
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Well, shiver me timbers:
Billy-Byrd-Guitar-Front_WEB.jpg

Linnin said:
The United States Patent Office says that they are indeed Leo Fender's inventions.
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And the Patent Office is entitled to every mistake it made, by all means.
GretschWretch said:
factually, no.
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Case truly closed.
 
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