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Trying to decide between several seemingly similar cabs with 12" speakers...
- Thread starter mattpnolan
- Start date
What truth do you think reading?
The truth is that greenboy work great for S/D music. They work great with tube amps.
The Ampeg SVT-212AV is a 4 ohm, 600 watt cab that is a solid, well built brick sh#* house. My Ampeg is matched up with a GK MB Fusion 500 head. Both my Am. Std. Jazz, and Hofner 500/1 sound great through that setup.
Dan Knowlton
Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes the tree
Well - referring to kjones' post...I've had Bergs (great cabs!) and went back to Accugroove cabs. I wanted more of a modular approach, so my "big rig" is the Tri-115L and a Tri-112L and is equivalent of the Whappo Jr. I have also had a Whappo and the current rig is what I need now. My dream LOUD AND Great rig is 2x Whappo Jr's.
I just like the sound of the Accugroove cabs in general and highly recommend the Whappo.
Dan
I just like the sound of the Accugroove cabs in general and highly recommend the Whappo.
Dan
Every design has it's benefits but also suffers on drawbacks respectively trade-offs. It depends on personal needs and taste if distinct "drawbacks" matter or not.
Nobody claims HiFi cabs don't work with tube amplifiers. To the contrary for HiFi home stereo application some people pay vast sums of money for tube amplifiers and HiFi stereo cabs. But those amplifiers are meant to run only at clean power range with headroom even with transients. There is no intentention to push these amplifiers hard to it's power limits.
While with MI gear, dependent on loudness level demands, it's way more likely that a tube amplifier may be pushed into power saturation. At least if it happens the generated sound by the cabinet shall sound "musical" rather than busy annoying.
The cabinet sound shall "musical" accomplish to the overdriven tube amplifier rather than emphasize every detail of generated THD at mids/treble band
If the sweet spot of the amplifier is reached it's impossible to get more of loudness on stage without generating even more of THD.
Low-driver 3012LF
n0 (reference efficiency): 1.53%
SPL 1 Watt: 94dB
typical low/mid-driver
n0 (reference efficiency): 2.58%
SPL 1 Watt: 99dB
Let's say the cab loaded with low/mid-driver is +3dB of better efficience than the 3012LF loaded cab. It's the same difference like doubling amp power. Compared to the Prodigy it means an amplifier with 500 watt would make same level with a cab that is -3dB less efficient.
Another plus of loudness with the Prodigy can be "gained" with a well fitted response at mids/treble.
If the response is "naturally" steep low passed by the driver around 4.5kHz so its possible to gain another +2..3dB more of loudness till the generated THD becomes audible.
Generally the generated THD becomes first audible at the upper treble band, if there is no response of the cab at this band then the very first THD artefacts remain not audible.
The amplifier then can be gained somwhat more till the artefacts become actually audible below <4.5kHz.
As the upper treble band >4.5kHz is obsolete (or at least turned down with the attenuator) the total sound can be more musical than with a "pedigree" full range HiFi cab. IME THD beyond 5kHz sounds nasty and I think there is a "musical" reason why 6-string cabs lowpass the response "naturally" with drivers.
In direct comparision a proper designed full range running woofer designs can push around 5..6dB more of loudness powered by a tube head versus low-end extended HiFi design.
Of course if there is more cab available like 2x212 or 215 then trade-offs can be considered different. As long the amplifier runs within clean power range with headroom there is no need for these considerations. I think in this case a SS amplifier would probably do a better job. I wouldn't buy neither schlep a tube head (or cab) with limitation the tube amplifier then can't pushed hard to a sweet spot cause the sound characteristic at overload range isn't my cup of tea.
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Clearly everybody's cup of tea is different.
Low drivers provide highish moving mass and rather highish Inductance. For lot's of amplifiers which are of moderate global feedback control to the driver it's allready a knock out criteria at least at overload range of the amplifier.
Even the svt with "good" speaker control does hard to control those drivers at overload range.
Low drivers provide highish moving mass and rather highish Inductance. For lot's of amplifiers which are of moderate global feedback control to the driver it's allready a knock out criteria at least at overload range of the amplifier.
Even the svt with "good" speaker control does hard to control those drivers at overload range.
Love those platitudes.TLR
Greenboy cabs work great with tube amps. Distortion or not.
[sarcasm on]
May be I did forget that every tube amp is just the same?
[sarcasm off]
I'm sure you are welcome to discribe tonal difference and efficience of FRRW cabs versus HiFi cabs when cabs are powered by different tube heads at clean power range and overload power range (seems you have got lots of experience with tube heads).
Or just record samples of notes B0/E1 with your tube head pushed hard into one of your HiFi cabs.
No sample, no sound, no cab.
I did a lot of technical/science considerations above why a HiFi cab may not be the best choice with a tube head. And I ain't the one who tries to convince the crowed that an HiFi cab is the "generally" best choice with an overloaded tube head.
I'm curious.
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I read the tech talk and try to understand it all. Then I listen to people whose experience and ears I trust. Then I listen to the gear IF that is possible. Then I read the guys I trust here again some have been here close to 20 yrs. those trusted people have led me to Bergantino, Barefaced, Fearless/full, Audiokenisis and most recently MAS (Mike Arnepol Soundworks). So since I have been using Bergantino cabs for almost a decade and played the F-types several times I know I'm being led in the right direction. (For me and my needs) I also believe that all of these are different flavors of high quality goodness and though they may have different nuances that could tilt you one way or the other, for me the question would be not so much will these work but do I want a tweeter or not. I'm moving in the direction of paper cone mids and highs even though I don't own one of these yet. I think it will be my next purchase. Although I'm liking what I hear about the AK cabs and Dukes application of mid/HF horns. A good friend just made the move from Berg to Barefaced but kept his AE410 cause he likes it so much and he uses a lot different types of dirt pedals.
I will venture to make a generalization in saying that ~MOST~ tube amps designed for the MI market are designed to handle being overdriven in a ~MOSTLY~ sonically pleasing way.
While we're discussing pushing MI amps, I'm of the impression also, but YMMV, that a significant portion of the SS amps (or SS power sections of amps) being designed by serious MI manufacturers that are being designed in the last few of years (some a bit further back in time), are being designed to handle being driven to their limits of design more gracefully & in a more sonically pleasing way, as opposed to the harsh sounds that some of the older &/or more cheaply designed MI SS amps make when pushed to or beyond their limits.
Whether or not any of these handle being overdriven with similar sonic appeal, I think not entirely, but getting somewhat closer than they used to.
blah blah blah the genz Benz neo cab and a matching head would be pretty straight forward.
although when I think stoner rock I just see a 810 with a V4 or SVT sitting on it.
or a Acoustic 406 cab with a 370 head sitting on top
or a mesa boogie 400 sitting on the matching 215
but.......lol
I'm sure a poop full sounds great with a dump buddy doo head
or you can catch more fish with new trolling motor lol
although when I think stoner rock I just see a 810 with a V4 or SVT sitting on it.
or a Acoustic 406 cab with a 370 head sitting on top
or a mesa boogie 400 sitting on the matching 215
but.......lol
I'm sure a poop full sounds great with a dump buddy doo head
or you can catch more fish with new trolling motor lol
Oh wait this is for stoner doom, yea ok, I got a Sunn 4X12 cab if ya need one, just sayin'...............
NICE... Very NICE!!! Yep... that's the pair! Plus a smaller backup Barefaced and a Kemper... Wow! My Big TwinII has a custom black grill cloth. Should look nice with the Prodigy.This?
Genz Benz NX2 212T
FEARLESS f112
Both cabs sound great and if I had to do choice within "clean" power amp range I would do very hard to make decision.
The fearless seems to have more of low-end and better definition/clarity at mids and top range.
The 212T seems to be more "voiced" and also more "gently" at mids/treble. The typical mid characteristic that comes "naturally" along wtih full range running low/mid 12" drivers is also audible.
With OD dirt coming off a pedal board (or preamp) which is LPF filtered or EQ'd there is no reasoning to fear busy dirt at upper range.
IMHO for "experienced" listeners it's imaginable what would happen if both cabs were powered by a hard pushed tube head.
Furthermore the 212T would provide the feature to adjust >4kHz to personal taste in this case.
Thank's to Ed Friedland for the great reviews. The reviews for the 212T and fearless should be taken exemplarily just to listen to basic differencies of basically different cab designs rather than making any "advertising".
FEARLESS f112
Both cabs sound great and if I had to do choice within "clean" power amp range I would do very hard to make decision.
The fearless seems to have more of low-end and better definition/clarity at mids and top range.
The 212T seems to be more "voiced" and also more "gently" at mids/treble. The typical mid characteristic that comes "naturally" along wtih full range running low/mid 12" drivers is also audible.
With OD dirt coming off a pedal board (or preamp) which is LPF filtered or EQ'd there is no reasoning to fear busy dirt at upper range.
IMHO for "experienced" listeners it's imaginable what would happen if both cabs were powered by a hard pushed tube head.
Furthermore the 212T would provide the feature to adjust >4kHz to personal taste in this case.
Thank's to Ed Friedland for the great reviews. The reviews for the 212T and fearless should be taken exemplarily just to listen to basic differencies of basically different cab designs rather than making any "advertising".
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Not sure if a Tweeter LPAD option crossed around 6kHz is sufficiant crossover point to "tame" tube head generated THD sufficient. Personally I prefere somewhat lower crossover point to "detach" THD content at treble range I don't wish to have "pronounced".
The two step attenuator option for the 6" mid/treble-cone can help to provide a scoop mid response thus can help to "smooth" the perceived response if there is lots of THD generated. But it will be then a total different animal than having (voiced) low/mid drivers running full range "naturally" low passed around 4.5kHz or similar.
For the 2-way designs like 212+6 the crossover point is set to around 800Hz (IIRC) and the 6" mid/treble cone transduces around up to 8kHz response which is "roughly" nearly 1 octave above rather typical low/mid driver response.
The switchable 2-step mid/treble attenuater acts brodaband 800Hz..8kHz (or similar).
So with "annoying" content >5kHz that (may be) shall be turned down the essential mids are also turned down.
With 3-way design the situation is a little bit different the HT crossover point is set around 6kHz and HT level can be turned
down with LPAD
An 6kHz cab response is pretty enough bandwith to even render electric 6-string guitar (most of all guitar drivers have lower bandwith at top resposne). The 6kHz point is still almost 1 octave below my hearing ability bandwidth of around 12.5kHz (that's not so bad for people of my age).
4kHz versus 6kHz means a difference of short 2/3 octave bandwidth which is quite a lot within this "sensitive" frequency range.
Even 4.7kHz versus 6kHz means a difference of still 1/3 octave bandwidth which equals filter-bandwith of 1/3 octave graphic equalizers.
BTW I don't know if these mid/HT attenuators come as a standard feature with pro cab building.
The DIY schematics show drawings without attenuaters as well.
At least I would hate to miss this features. Probably I would go with a 3-way design cause there are better/more possibilities to adjust the response to an overloaded tube head. Either way a 3-way HiFi design can't substitude full range running low/mid woofers and full range running low/mid woofers can't substitude a HiFi design.
Both designs provide distinct strong benefits but also draw-backs in particular.
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