Using water based products for instrument finishing, Target Coatings 9000 6000 and Varathane WB

[jTrolt]

Hey JTrolt;

Actually, yes. That was exactly the problem I had with Target's EM9000, when I was working with it about 7 years ago. There were so many great things about EM9000, but I kept getting these little "craters". The finish would level out to a beautiful clear gloss.....but there were these little random cone-shaped holes in the surface. And they couldn't be filled with more coats. The next coat wouldn't flow into the crater, it would pull away from it and make it bigger. I even tried filling them with CA glue. I talked to Target about it, and they said it was something to do with the shelf life of the product. Some element in the mix was separating and pre-curing into little beads, which then acted like a contaminant. It wasn't an actual contaminant. They were working on the problem. I gave up on EM9000 solely because of that cratering problem.

They eventually gave up on EM9000 and discontinued it. And they came out with EM9300 to replace it. Same general type of finish, but they call EM9300 Water-Base Polycarbonate Urethane. Some different chemistry.

Obviously, the cratering problem was a big concern when I ordered my first quart of EM9300. But no sign of it so far. It appears that they've solved that problem. EM9300 is even better than Varathane Ultimate at flowing into and filling sanding scratches and defects in the coats underneath. I'm working on my first gallon of it now, and I don't believe Jeremy and I have seen any cratering.

Many thanks for that reply, Bruce. I did suspect an extended sit on the shelf may have had something to do with it.
May have to try some of the new formula (no 5 gallon buckets!)

I'll also interject, the best new formulation I've found recently is a new offering from Old Masters. I had been using Master's Armor, and enjoying it's performance. Sprays/levels/sands like a dream, and is formulated for hardwood floors, so it is formulated for both spray or brushing and sets up quite hard. A catalyst can be added to the final coat to harden it a bit more for "high traffic areas" of hardwood floors. (or guitar bodies?)
However, despite it being formulated for floors, it does not build a thick coating very quickly. Priced in the neighborhood of $50-60 /gallon, so the coats are not that costly.

Enter their newest offering: Old Master's Apex. Now this stuff builds fast and is extra thick, more like the Varathane. Spraying is the only recommended method of application, and you may have to ask at the counter if an Old Master's dealer carries it. They make a deal out of it being for "professional use only" and don't display on the retail shelves, probably due to the "spray only" formulation. Diamond Vogel distributes it.
Also found you pretty much need a pressurized cup or pot to push it through the gun. Just too thick to draw through a gravity gun, but if you're already equipped with such a setup, it's worth a try. Also takes the same hardening agent as the Master's Armor, so that may be of assistance when buffing. Main thing that knocked my socks off about it was that I can get a finish that has things looking buttery smooth with just 2 coats on raw maple. It's still running very reasonably priced at ~ $60 per gallon.

Not an argument against EmTech, or for Old Masters, just a loose comparison, and another option to consider that could also be well suited for guitar bodies.

What does all this cabinetmaker stuff have to do with luthier's corner?
I've got some curly maple, mahogany and alder amp cabs in the works. They will house hand made tube amps, and the builder wanted burst finishes/ exotics to compliment classic and contemporary guitar bodies, featuring fully buffed, deep high gloss surfaces. Looking forward to the finishing, and will likely share here, if interested.
The finishing processes are definitely the same, hence my lurking and occasional comments, but want to make sure I'm not hijacking. Maybe I start a build thread for those alone?

Thanks again!

 

[ardgedee]

The finishing processes are definitely the same, hence my lurking and occasional comments, but want to make sure I'm not hijacking. Maybe I start a build thread for those alone?

A separate build thread would be awesome just to make it easier to follow.

 

[jTrolt]

Will do!

 

[Matt Liebenau]

Many thanks for that reply, Bruce. I did suspect an extended sit on the shelf may have had something to do with it.
May have to try some of the new formula (no 5 gallon buckets!)

I'll also interject, the best new formulation I've found recently is a new offering from Old Masters. I had been using Master's Armor, and enjoying it's performance. Sprays/levels/sands like a dream, and is formulated for hardwood floors, so it is formulated for both spray or brushing and sets up quite hard. A catalyst can be added to the final coat to harden it a bit more for "high traffic areas" of hardwood floors. (or guitar bodies?)
However, despite it being formulated for floors, it does not build a thick coating very quickly. Priced in the neighborhood of $50-60 /gallon, so the coats are not that costly.

Enter their newest offering: Old Master's Apex. Now this stuff builds fast and is extra thick, more like the Varathane. Spraying is the only recommended method of application, and you may have to ask at the counter if an Old Master's dealer carries it. They make a deal out of it being for "professional use only" and don't display on the retail shelves, probably due to the "spray only" formulation. Diamond Vogel distributes it.
Also found you pretty much need a pressurized cup or pot to push it through the gun. Just too thick to draw through a gravity gun, but if you're already equipped with such a setup, it's worth a try. Also takes the same hardening agent as the Master's Armor, so that may be of assistance when buffing. Main thing that knocked my socks off about it was that I can get a finish that has things looking buttery smooth with just 2 coats on raw maple. It's still running very reasonably priced at ~ $60 per gallon.

Not an argument against EmTech, or for Old Masters, just a loose comparison, and another option to consider that could also be well suited for guitar bodies.

What does all this cabinetmaker stuff have to do with luthier's corner?
I've got some curly maple, mahogany and alder amp cabs in the works. They will house hand made tube amps, and the builder wanted burst finishes/ exotics to compliment classic and contemporary guitar bodies, featuring fully buffed, deep high gloss surfaces. Looking forward to the finishing, and will likely share here, if interested.
The finishing processes are definitely the same, hence my lurking and occasional comments, but want to make sure I'm not hijacking. Maybe I start a build thread for those alone?

Thanks again!

Yeah, I’d be interested in seeing the build and finishing processes for the cabinets.

 

[Evan38109]

As long as we're talking about EM9300, does anyone have thoughts on Target's EM8000cv conversion varnish? Compared to EM9300, it has a warm tone more akin to traditional solvent-based finishes and is supposed to be a bit harder. Maybe not appropriate for all looks, but I can imagine it working well when you want a warm, natural wood look.

I've been playing around with it and like what I see, but I don't read much mention of it around here. Any reason?

For reference, here's the before and after of a few of my first tests. That's a few pieces of scrap hickory, some old big box poplar, and the cheapest imported plywood my local hardwood store offers. I'm still learning how to spray, so...don't judge.

Before:

After:

Edit: attached the right photos

 

[Bruce Johnson]

As long as we're talking about EM9300, does anyone have thoughts on Target's EM8000cv conversion varnish? Compared to EM9300, it has a warm tone more akin to traditional solvent-based finishes and is supposed to be a bit harder. Maybe not appropriate for all looks, but I can imagine it working well when you want a warm, natural wood look.

I've been playing around with it and like what I see, but I don't read much mention of it around here. Any reason?

For reference, here's the before and after of a few of my first tests. That's a few pieces of scrap hickory, some old big box poplar, and the cheapest imported plywood my local hardwood store offers. I'm still learning how to spray, so...don't judge.

Before:
View attachment 6980314

After:
View attachment 6980315

Edit: attached the right photos

Hello Evan;

Yes, Target has a whole lineup of finishes available, and they are all intended to be water-base alternatives to classic woodworking finishes. They try to match the characteristics of those finishes.

The EM6000 and EM7000 series are similar to Nitro Lacquer, except without the fumes and fire hazard. An interesting one I haven't tried is EM7000HBL. It's full burn-in, like nitro lacquer, but with solids added to build up a thick clear coat quickly.

The EM8000 series are like Oil-Base Varnishes. They are relatively slow-curing and have that built-in amber tint that warms up the color of most woods. They are intended to be used over bare wood, to show off the wood. I haven't tried it myself. So please, evaluate it and show us here on this thread. It could be a real good choice for a natural wood-style bass.

The EM9300 is like solvent-base clear polyurethane. Without the fumes and fire hazard. I chose it for my basses because I want the flexibility of mixing in my own blends of transparent and solid pigments to get the colors I want. And then having a crystal clear hard top coat.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Has anyone (sorry if I missed it) tried VU as a midcoat with metal flake?
If so, what would be an appropriate product for base coat (colored) .
And is VU a good topcoat, or is there a faster build hard topcoat that can bind on top of VU?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Has anyone (sorry if I missed it) tried VU as a midcoat with metal flake?
If so, what would be an appropriate product for base coat (colored) .
And is VU a good topcoat, or is there a faster build hard topcoat that can bind on top of VU?

Hello Mephisto;

Yes, we have. Several of us on this thread have done metalflake finishes using Varathane Ultimate as the main binder and top coats. Our buddy Jeremy (@Freekmagnet) has done quite a few, and is currently finishing one up here in my spray booth.

I'm not really into metalflake finishes, not my style for my basses. But I did a cobalt blue metalflake one a few years ago, using VU for everything. VU tinted opaque black for the base coats, clear VU as the binder/bed for the metalflake, and coats of clear VU as the top coats. It worked fine and came out well.

If I were going to do another metalflake (which I am not) I would probably use the Target EM9300 instead. It flows out better and cures to a harder surface than VU.

 

[Barticus]

Hello Mephisto;

Yes, we have. Several of us on this thread have done metalflake finishes using Varathane Ultimate as the main binder and top coats. Our buddy Jeremy (@Freekmagnet) has done quite a few, and is currently finishing one up here in my spray booth.

I'm not really into metalflake finishes, not my style for my basses. But I did a cobalt blue metalflake one a few years ago, using VU for everything. VU tinted opaque black for the base coats, clear VU as the binder/bed for the metalflake, and coats of clear VU as the top coats. It worked fine and came out well.

If I were going to do another metalflake (which I am not) I would probably use the Target EM9300 instead. It flows out better and cures to a harder surface than VU.

View attachment 6980723

View attachment 6980724

View attachment 6980725

Wow, that looks really good.
Have you ever done a five string version of your bass Bruce?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Wow, that looks really good.
Have you ever done a five string version of your bass Bruce?

That was a unique special Scroll Bass with a long crazy story. It was mostly built by a friend of mine, back in the '90's, but never finished. I acquired it in a trade, and ended up finishing it up on commission to go as a gift to a retired rock star.

No, I don't do five string versions of my Scroll Basses.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Hello Mephisto;

Yes, we have. Several of us on this thread have done metalflake finishes using Varathane Ultimate as the main binder and top coats. Our buddy Jeremy (@Freekmagnet) has done quite a few, and is currently finishing one up here in my spray booth.

I'm not really into metalflake finishes, not my style for my basses. But I did a cobalt blue metalflake one a few years ago, using VU for everything. VU tinted opaque black for the base coats, clear VU as the binder/bed for the metalflake, and coats of clear VU as the top coats. It worked fine and came out well.

If I were going to do another metalflake (which I am not) I would probably use the Target EM9300 instead. It flows out better and cures to a harder surface than VU.

View attachment 6980723

View attachment 6980724

View attachment 6980725

Great, thanks for reiterating on my behalf.
Thanks again for the suggestion for the Target em9300.

I just acquired a spray gun with a nozzle size that will carry the flake in solution.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Great, thanks for reiterating on my behalf.
Thanks again for the suggestion for the Target em9300.

I just acquired a spray gun with a nozzle size that will carry the flake in solution.

Yes, that's what I did on that blue one. I mixed the metalflake powder into some VU and sprayed it on there. Be prepared to very thoroughly clean out the gun. I used an old cheap HVLP gun, not my best ones.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

A note of caution:

Jeremy and I have noticed a problem with EM9300 that's potentially serious. Jeremy painted a neck with EM9300 and it was fully cured and buffed out, looked great. Then he set the bass in a cheap guitar stand, with the neoprene rubber cushion on the neck yoke. The next day, there was a full one-on-one mark on the neck where the cushion was in contact with it. Not good. It didn't appear that the rubber chemically ate into the EM9300, like it can with nitro lacquer. But it discolored it, made it sort of whitish. The discoloration appears to be right on the surface, not down deep. It won't wipe off, but it probably could be buffed off. But still, not good.

And then I took a good look at the Scroll Bass that I recently painted with EM9300. The big vinyl pickguard had been screwed down on the bass for several weeks. When I took the pickguard off, I found similar discolored patches in the EM9300 underneath. Mostly small areas around the screws, and places where there was pressure pushing the plastic down onto the finish. Again, it doesn't appear to be chemically reacting or dissolving. The finish wasn't sticking to the pickguard. Nothing pulled up or made any textural mark. But the patches went from clear gloss to partially opaque. In this case, it's not a "fatal" problem, because these discolored patches are all hidden under the pickguard when the bass is assembled. But I still don't like it.

That bass has also been resting for several weeks on a plush fabric covered pad on my assembly bench. There aren't any marks or discolorations on the back surface from that contact.

I just wanted to warn any of you who are rushing out to buy EM9300 based on my recommendation. Maybe hold off until we investigate this further.

I may even write to Jeff Weiss at Target and see what he thinks.

We have never seen this problem with Varathane Ultimate.

 

[JuanB]

A note of caution:

Jeremy and I have noticed a problem with EM9300 that's potentially serious. Jeremy painted a neck with EM9300 and it was fully cured and buffed out, looked great. Then he set the bass in a cheap guitar stand, with the neoprene rubber cushion on the neck yoke. The next day, there was a full one-on-one mark on the neck where the cushion was in contact with it. Not good. It didn't appear that the rubber chemically ate into the EM9300, like it can with nitro lacquer. But it discolored it, made it sort of whitish. The discoloration appears to be right on the surface, not down deep. It won't wipe off, but it probably could be buffed off. But still, not good.

And then I took a good look at the Scroll Bass that I recently painted with EM9300. The big vinyl pickguard had been screwed down on the bass for several weeks. When I took the pickguard off, I found similar discolored patches in the EM9300 underneath. Mostly small areas around the screws, and places where there was pressure pushing the plastic down onto the finish. Again, it doesn't appear to be chemically reacting or dissolving. The finish wasn't sticking to the pickguard. Nothing pulled up or made any textural mark. But the patches went from clear gloss to partially opaque. In this case, it's not a "fatal" problem, because these discolored patches are all hidden under the pickguard when the bass is assembled. But I still don't like it.

That bass has also been resting for several weeks on a plush fabric covered pad on my assembly bench. There aren't any marks or discolorations on the back surface from that contact.

I just wanted to warn any of you who are rushing out to buy EM9300 based on my recommendation. Maybe hold off until we investigate this further.

I may even write to Jeff Weiss at Target and see what he thinks.

We have never seen this problem with Varathane Ultimate.

Appreciate the update. I was indeed thinking of buying some EM9300. Given that surface contact with rubber/plastic is causing discoloration in the coating, this does suggest some chemistry going on.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Appreciate the update. I was indeed thinking of buying some EM9300. Given that surface contact with rubber/plastic is causing discoloration in the coating, this does suggest some chemistry going on.

Yes, I think it's something chemical, but in the reverse direction. Most plastics and foams have some residual chemical film on their surface that's left over from the process of making the plastic. I suspect what's going on here is that that chemical film, when pressed against the EM9300, is transferring to it and bonding to it. I think the discoloration is a thin film on top of the surface of the EM9300. It doesn't wipe off, but I suspect it will easily buff off. I'm going to do some experiments on that Scroll Bass body to see what it takes to remove that discoloration. Just a light buffing, or does it require light sanding?

For the pickguard problem, the solution may be to clean the underside of the pickguard carefully with DNA before screwing it down. The neoprene yoke in the guitar stand is more of a problem. Customers won't be happy if they have to frequently re-buff their necks to get rid of those neck yoke marks. Or maybe the answer is to always wax the EM9300? Would that stop the transfer? Things to be tested......

 

[Changed5Times]

Just curious, has anyone ever used this ZAR product - I picked it up at the local hardware store (they didn't have any VU, and I didn't want to have to wait for shipping from somewhere)?

If so, what kind of performance can I expect as compared to VU?

 

[JParsons]

How well do these water based finishes adhere to plastic binding? Are you using an adhesion promoter at all?

 

[Matt Liebenau]

How well do these water based finishes adhere to plastic binding? Are you using an adhesion promoter at all?

VU stuck just fine to this binding. No special prep. Sanded to 320 or 400, tape off the binding, sprayed the candy apple red, unmasked, scraped as needed and started spraying clear. I did use some Varathane triple thick to build up where the binding is after the first 6 or 8 coats of clear but no issues. More details in my thread.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/building-slowly.1581802/

The Kay starts somewhere around page 20.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Just curious, has anyone ever used this ZAR product - I picked it up at the local hardware store (they didn't have any VU, and I didn't want to have to wait for shipping from somewhere)?

If so, what kind of performance can I expect as compared to VU?

View attachment 6993234

The ZAR company has been around forever. I think mostly oil-base marine varnishes. So it's interesting that they are moving into the water-base field. I would expect that this product would be similar to Varathane Ultimate in chemistry and performance. Maybe better, maybe not?

If you've bought some, please test it out and tell us what you think. This whole thread is about trying and comparing different types and brands of water-base polyurethanes.

 

[Jamie Hayes]

Just thought I'd share this experience -- bought two quarts of VU off of amazon and started getting bad cratering/fisheyes no matter what I did. Switched to the second quart, same issue. I went and grabbed a quart from home depot and sure enough the issue disappeared. So basically, there definitely are bad batches of VU floating around. I don't know if amazon sellers are selling really old stock or something, but I haven't had any problems with the ones I've bought from HD, so I'm going to pay the little extra going forward.