Using water based products for instrument finishing, Target Coatings 9000 6000 and Varathane WB

#2,381
Hi All!

Nice to meet you all! I'm new to the forum and relatively new to guitar finishing in general.
I've been going over large amounts of this enormous post, trying to learn as much as I can about using poly and spray guns and this post is incredible!
Thank you all for sharing this information with the world! it's very hard to get solid info on this process since it has so much different variables!

This is a bit long :)

I've been wanting to get into spray finishing, and purchased an HVLP spray gun and a compressor to match.
After reading lots of this post, I wanted to make sure that I'm doing the right things, just wanted to ask a few questions:

My tools and materials:
HVLP gun, compressor, Varathane sealer, can of VU, Stewmac pore filler and colortone dyes, various grits sanding paper.

My process:
1. Preparing the body (Swamp ash) - Sanded smooth.
2. Pore filling - used the stewmac pore filler for this - applied about 3-4 coats. cleared the excess after applying, and then block sanded with 320 until the entire surface was smooth to the touch. and I didn't felt the open pores. There were a few places I've drop filled with CA glue and than sanded.
3. Sanding sealer - first try with spray gun! Took me a while to understand the gun, and adjustments, and getting a thin coat, without sags and runs.
-- Question - The sealer is translucent. Is there a need to get a sealer with primer for opaque finish?

4. Sanded the sealer flat - again with 320. light sanding. the surface was really flat and nice.

5. From this point on, I was ready to put on color.
I was striving for an opaque finish. I have a bottle stew mac liquid color tones. Coral reef blue and lemon yellow.
This is a bit dodgy, since I did not measure it, but I just filled VU in a glass container, and added about 1/5 of the coral reef blue and a spritz of the lemon yellow, till I got a green color which is kinda what I wanted.
-- Question - anyone worked with these dyes? are they the right approach to go with opaque finishes?

I understand that the method is, applying fast thin coats, 5 a day with about 30 minutes between coats. At the begining of everyday, sand with 600 grit (right?) and continue.
And this is where I'm partially in. I'm after the first day of the 5 coats, waiting for it to dry off.
-- Question - noticed that the edges are not exception color as the rest of the body, and If I try to add more in thoes areas, I get runs. Any suggestions?

-- Question - How much coats am I expected to put on, before getting a full opaque color?
The color is getting more opaque, but it seems that I will need much more coats to not see any grain lines.
Also, the color I'm getting is very dark.

-- Question - Regarding clear coats, can I apply the same technique of fast coats? how much coats does it usually require before wet sanding etc?
-- Question - Drying time - some say 1 week is enough, others said 3 weeks. Is there a preferred time?

Thanks again for all of this great information!
 
Last edited:
#2,382
elmekiesdavid said:
5. From this point on, I was ready to put on color.
I was striving for an opaque finish. I have a bottle stew mac liquid color tones. Coral reef blue and lemon yellow.
This is a bit dodgy, since I did not measure it, but I just filled VU in a glass container, and added about 1/5 of the coral reef blue and a spritz of the lemon yellow, till I got a green color which is kinda what I wanted.
-- Question - anyone worked with these dyes? are they the right approach to go with opaque finishes?
Click to expand...
I used the Stewmac colorant for water based finish on this Ric clone build. It was the only one I tried that seemed to mix well and yield a truly opaque black (not dark purple!) in VU, through there may be others. Can't speak to blue or yellow, but it seems like if black works, anything should. I'm out of the loop on this thread though, haven't done any painted finishes for about 5 years. Might want to read back a bit to get the latest info on best practice for gun type, pressure, etc. IIRC , @Bruce Johnson was using a fairly low pressure and laying it on wet enough to flow out. It's not like traditional solvent-based paints at all. I managed to do it with a cheap Harbor Freight HVLP "All in One" sprayer ill-suited for the job, but had to spend HOURS sanding out the heavy orange peel. You should get better results out of the gun with the right gear and technique. Planning a painted build next, I've since got access to a small DeWalt "pancake" compressor, but need a "real" HVLP gun, so I'll have to do some diving into this thread again too.
xkQXM2A.jpg
 
#2,383
elmekiesdavid said:
Hi All!

Nice to meet you all! I'm new to the forum and relatively new to guitar finishing in general.
I've been going over large amounts of this enormous post, trying to learn as much as I can about using poly and spray guns and this post is incredible!
Thank you all for sharing this information with the world! it's very hard to get solid info on this process since it has so much different variables!

This is a bit long :)

I've been wanting to get into spray finishing, and purchased an HVLP spray gun and a compressor to match.
After reading lots of this post, I wanted to make sure that I'm doing the right things, just wanted to ask a few questions:

My tools and materials:
HVLP gun, compressor, Varathane sealer, can of VU, Stewmac pore filler and colortone dyes, various grits sanding paper.

My process:
1. Preparing the body (Swamp ash) - Sanded smooth.
2. Pore filling - used the stewmac pore filler for this - applied about 3-4 coats. cleared the excess after applying, and then block sanded with 320 until the entire surface was smooth to the touch. and I didn't felt the open pores. There were a few places I've drop filled with CA glue and than sanded.
3. Sanding sealer - first try with spray gun! Took me a while to understand the gun, and adjustments, and getting a thin coat, without sags and runs.
-- Question - The sealer is translucent. Is there a need to get a sealer with primer for opaque finish?

4. Sanded the sealer flat - again with 320. light sanding. the surface was really flat and nice.

5. From this point on, I was ready to put on color.
I was striving for an opaque finish. I have a bottle stew mac liquid color tones. Coral reef blue and lemon yellow.
This is a bit dodgy, since I did not measure it, but I just filled VU in a glass container, and added about 1/5 of the coral reef blue and a spritz of the lemon yellow, till I got a green color which is kinda what I wanted.
-- Question - anyone worked with these dyes? are they the right approach to go with opaque finishes?

I understand that the method is, applying fast thin coats, 5 a day with about 30 minutes between coats. At the begining of everyday, sand with 600 grit (right?) and continue.
And this is where I'm partially in. I'm after the first day of the 5 coats, waiting for it to dry off.
-- Question - noticed that the edges are not exception color as the rest of the body, and If I try to add more in thoes areas, I get runs. Any suggestions?

-- Question - How much coats am I expected to put on, before getting a full opaque color?
The color is getting more opaque, but it seems that I will need much more coats to not see any grain lines.
Also, the color I'm getting is very dark.

-- Question - Regarding clear coats, can I apply the same technique of fast coats? how much coats does it usually require before wet sanding etc?
-- Question - Drying time - some say 1 week is enough, others said 3 weeks. Is there a preferred time?

Thanks again for all of this great information!
Click to expand...


Hi, welcome to the fun, frustrating world of finishing. My first question would be what are your spray gun settings? Air pressure, needle, how big is the needle, fan air, air flow adjustment?

As an example I usually have my guns set for VU at around 12-15psi, 1.7 or 1.8 needle set 1 1/2 to 2 turns out from fully seated, air adjustment essentially all the way open and fan air open a little.

When spraying you want to spray until clear VU just starts to turn milky or a cloudy blue. If you read the last couple of pages in my thread I just discovered that’s much easier with a bigger needle. The gun I was using had a 1.2 or 1.3, when I switched that out for the 1.8 things got much better. I was hitting that cloudy color on the first pass and, once I adjusted my technique, no runs. Three coats of clear were enough to bury medium size metal flake and sand it smooth. You’ll have to somewhat interpret that cloudy color with color coats.

I’m not experienced with the pore filler but it sounds like you were ok there. On the sealer, again I’ve never used Varathane sanding sealer, for a natural finish I use Varathane Ultimate. Spray 3 or 4 coats and sand until the grain / pores are filled. On something like your ash body I’d still use a grain filler then finish with VU. With a solid color I like Createx Autoborne sealer. I just sprayed a cherry and a Radiata pine body. They took 3 coats of Autoborne sealer and both were almost completely flat. The only issue on the cherry body was because of me not the sealer. I suspect 2 coats of sealer would have probably been enough but I had already reduced it so I wanted to use most of it up. Autoborne sealer can be bought (spraygunner.com) in multiple colors which makes covering with color coats much easier and quicker. They also have a clear Autoborne sealer which I haven’t tried but would probably be the ticket for natural finish bodies.

Again, I’m not super familiar with Colortone dyes, I think they’re rebranded TransTint? I have used TransTint but only to make a candy or tinted clear. Bruce has a post about using denatured alchohol to mix TransTint or Mixol into VU. If this link doesn’t work its post 1303. https://www.talkbass.com/threads/us...0-6000-and-varathane-wb.1116168/post-23412609

As you’ve experienced you may have to apply a fair amount of color coats to build opacity and the color will tend to get darker as you apply more. I’ll let @Bruce Johnson advise you on that as I think that’s how he finishes his scroll basses. I switched to Createx paints for solid colors. Part of the reason is quicker coverage although even with those the final color is very influenced by the base coat color. I don’t have it on my phone but I used to have a picture of three bodies that I painted with the same blue but with white, silver and black base coats or primer and they ranged from light blue to purple. This is all a long way of saying painting is a system and a lot of factors affect the final outcome. I’ve painted maybe 15 or 20 bodies and I’m finally coming up with stuff I’m almost willing to admit to.

The edges not taking color the same as the rest of the body. I know finish tends to pull away from edges, especially sharp corners. I think I’ve fixed issues I’ve had by changing my spray technique but I just did it so not sure I can explain it.

Letting it cure. It depends on which sanding you mean. I’ve level sanded in prep for another color or the next round of clear the next day or sometimes within a few hours. For the final sand and buff I usually let things sit for a week or a couple. Partially because of my work schedule. I feel like VU is harder or more cured after a week or two but I can’t prove it and could easily be wrong.

I don’t wet sand anymore either. I use Mirka round mesh sanding pads. Usually starting with 600 grit then 800 to level the clear. Sometimes I’ll go up to 1000. After that I buff with 3M super duty polish which takes the 800 grit to a semi gloss then, if I’m going to a gloss finish I polish with fine cutting compound. I think I bought a Turtle Wax product last.

I hope something in these ramblings helps.
 
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#2,384
Gilmourisgod said:
I used the Stewmac colorant for water based finish on this Ric clone build. It was the only one I tried that seemed to mix well and yield a truly opaque black (not dark purple!) in VU, through there may be others. Can't speak to blue or yellow, but it seems like if black works, anything should. I'm out of the loop on this thread though, haven't done any painted finishes for about 5 years. Might want to read back a bit to get the latest info on best practice for gun type, pressure, etc. IIRC , @Bruce Johnson was using a fairly low pressure and laying it on wet enough to flow out. It's not like traditional solvent-based paints at all. I managed to do it with a cheap Harbor Freight HVLP "All in One" sprayer ill-suited for the job, but had to spend HOURS sanding out the heavy orange peel. You should get better results out of the gun with the right gear and technique. Planning a painted build next, I've since got access to a small DeWalt "pancake" compressor, but need a "real" HVLP gun, so I'll have to do some diving into this thread again too.
xkQXM2A.jpg
Click to expand...

Alex, if you’re using a small pancake compressor may I suggest an LVLP gun instead of HVLP. Low volume instead of high.

This is the one I’ve been keeping for clear coats only although it may have been discontinued so check before you buy. Get a 1.7 or 1.8 needle and nozzle. This one looks like it comes with it but I had to get a separate 1.7 for mine. My compressor runs a lot less when I’m using this gun so it should help a smaller compressor keep up.

 
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Reactions: Gilmourisgod
#2,385
elmekiesdavid said:
Hi All!

Nice to meet you all! I'm new to the forum and relatively new to guitar finishing in general.
I've been going over large amounts of this enormous post, trying to learn as much as I can about using poly and spray guns and this post is incredible!
Thank you all for sharing this information with the world! it's very hard to get solid info on this process since it has so much different variables!

This is a bit long :)

I've been wanting to get into spray finishing, and purchased an HVLP spray gun and a compressor to match.
After reading lots of this post, I wanted to make sure that I'm doing the right things, just wanted to ask a few questions:

My tools and materials:
HVLP gun, compressor, Varathane sealer, can of VU, Stewmac pore filler and colortone dyes, various grits sanding paper.

My process:
1. Preparing the body (Swamp ash) - Sanded smooth.
2. Pore filling - used the stewmac pore filler for this - applied about 3-4 coats. cleared the excess after applying, and then block sanded with 320 until the entire surface was smooth to the touch. and I didn't felt the open pores. There were a few places I've drop filled with CA glue and than sanded.
3. Sanding sealer - first try with spray gun! Took me a while to understand the gun, and adjustments, and getting a thin coat, without sags and runs.
-- Question - The sealer is translucent. Is there a need to get a sealer with primer for opaque finish?

4. Sanded the sealer flat - again with 320. light sanding. the surface was really flat and nice.

5. From this point on, I was ready to put on color.
I was striving for an opaque finish. I have a bottle stew mac liquid color tones. Coral reef blue and lemon yellow.
This is a bit dodgy, since I did not measure it, but I just filled VU in a glass container, and added about 1/5 of the coral reef blue and a spritz of the lemon yellow, till I got a green color which is kinda what I wanted.
-- Question - anyone worked with these dyes? are they the right approach to go with opaque finishes?

I understand that the method is, applying fast thin coats, 5 a day with about 30 minutes between coats. At the begining of everyday, sand with 600 grit (right?) and continue.
And this is where I'm partially in. I'm after the first day of the 5 coats, waiting for it to dry off.
-- Question - noticed that the edges are not exception color as the rest of the body, and If I try to add more in thoes areas, I get runs. Any suggestions?

-- Question - How much coats am I expected to put on, before getting a full opaque color?
The color is getting more opaque, but it seems that I will need much more coats to not see any grain lines.
Also, the color I'm getting is very dark.

-- Question - Regarding clear coats, can I apply the same technique of fast coats? how much coats does it usually require before wet sanding etc?
-- Question - Drying time - some say 1 week is enough, others said 3 weeks. Is there a preferred time?

Thanks again for all of this great information!
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a long list of questions! Most of them have already been covered back in the depths of this thread. Matt's been covering some of them. I'll answer one right now.

About the Stew-Mac dyes, are these the ones you are using?

ColorTone Liquid Stains - StewMac

Authentic guitar colors mix with virtually any finish. Make wood grain come alive!
www.stewmac.com www.stewmac.com

We commonly call them TransTints, because they are manufactured by the TransTint company and sold by Stew-Mac under the ColorTone brand. You can buy them other places as the TransTint brand.

Maybe you didn't realize it, but those are dyes, which are made to do transparent/translucent finishes. That is you can see through the color. You spray on multiple coats to build up to the shade and depth of color that you want. But it takes a whole lot of coats and thickness to get to opaque. That's not what these TransTint dyes were intended for. That's why you are struggling to get them opaque.

If you want opaque, you should use solid color pigments, like these:

Mixol Universal Tints - StewMac

With Mixol Universal Tints make any color you want in ANY finish you want.
www.stewmac.com www.stewmac.com

A small amount of these pigments will make the finish completely opaque in one or two coats. You mix them to get the color shade you want.

Those are the Mixol brand, which are quite popular. Stew-Mac used to also sell their own line of solid color pigments under the ColorTone brand, but they don't list them now.

There are other brands of solid color pigments available too. My personal favorite is Smooth-On's So-Strong brand. They also work well in epoxy, to make it an opaque color.

Before you buy any dye or pigment, make sure it says it's compatible with Water Base finishes. Most of them available today are, but some of the older brands were only for oil base finishes.
 
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#2,386
That's a bummer that they stopped carrying the Colortone pigment for water based finish, it was the only one I found that got to opaque black in a couple coats. I tried some of the Transtint black dye early on, and got this weird purple out of it. Luckily just a scrap test board, not the bass.
r4tNuvo.jpg
 
#2,387
Gilmourisgod said:
That's a bummer that they stopped carrying the Colortone pigment for water based finish, it was the only one I found that got to opaque black in a couple coats. I tried some of the Transtint black dye early on, and got this weird purple out of it. Luckily just a scrap test board, not the bass.
r4tNuvo.jpg
Click to expand...

Yeah, the TransTint Black is pretty much useless, unless you are trying to do a transparent black finish. Whatever that is. Back in my early days of painting basses (like 1996!), I remember getting really frustrated trying to spray black sunburst edges with TransTint Black. I would mix in way more than needed, spray ten coats, and it was still partly transparent. Well, Duh. Maybe I should have taken a hint from its brand name.
 
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#2,389
Question regarding orange peel (I think its orange peel) after color coats and before clear coats.

I’m using VU and mixol pigments.
I got some orange peel on the last 2 coats of the color coats because i kinda played with the air pressure adjustment connected to the gun, lowering the pressure, which made the finish come out much less atomized and the drops were much larger and visible. When it will dry, it will be noticed.

What should I do before applying clear coats?
Wait for it to completely dry, and level send it? What grits? Should it be completely flat?
 
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