I'm trying to figure out some "strange" note appearance on Beat 1 with Dm from Ron Carter's book, "Building Jazz Bass lines".
Do you think theory could help me or not?
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Walking bass: looking for "stay calm and thump on" advice
- Thread starter Bass Momma
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I'm trying to figure out some "strange" note appearance on Beat 1 with Dm from Ron Carter's book, "Building Jazz Bass lines".
Do you think theory could help me or not?
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
- 7,548
- 69
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
My theory: if it sounds good, it is good - what we do is after all, entertainment, so that which entertains is, by definition, good. Does that help?
Bar 2 is just the dominant five chord in 1st inversion.The four notes in the bar suggest D harmonic min.
Bar 8 outlines the non dominant five chord so it's diatonic to the D natural minor. The B flat (flat 9) in this bar reinforces the D minor tonality.
Bar 13 seems to be a bit of a descending chromatic sequence given the descending line and B natural. Notice the D is emphasized in the line and B natural is diatonic to the ascending form of D melodic minor. It would be helpful to see what notes the piano player hit.
Honestly when I was a younger player I found this sort of teaching material very confusing because the nuances are not explained and you don't hear what the other players are doing so there is no context to understand why the line makes sense. Skilled jazz players intuitively throw in all sorts of chord subs which are reflected as chromatics in the bass. I believe the vocabulary is learned more from playing with others and trying new things than through directly studying theory. At some point the piano and bassist may have discussed and agreed on the use of certain passing tone motifs, but I doubt it.
That being said, I consider myself more ignorant than educated on these matters and you have some heavies participating in the thread so perhaps they can provide a more informed analysis.
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I spent some time editing my previous post...sorry it took awhile. I suspect the piano player probably played a dom V chord over that bar. You could analyze the chord as a modified extension of the i chord, but I doubt it functions that way, or the line would have emphasized more primary chord tones. So no, I don't believe it's generally acceptable to play a Dom V7 over a i chord.
IMHO this is a very useful way of approaching arpeggiated lines that involve only chord tones in different inversions. To some degree I use this approach in my head when I am working out lines. Juxtapose this with a modal approach that integrates diatonic passing tones to play linear lines. Then combine both approaches.
A study of when and how frequently to emphasize primary chord tones (1,3,5) is important, especially when your roll is to lay down the foundation for the rest of the band. Soloist will not appreciate it if you get to far out. This will of course vary by player. When you are soloing you are much freer to play non chord tones and upper extensions.
I understand that as an honest statement/question. He was always still searching for stuff, when I was the last student & done with a lesson sometimes it was his turn to practice, he had been himself been re-obsessing with possibilities in second position during my time with him. So it's just that, there isn't a way he's found to play four notes and make the other musicians understand a specific entire mode right away.
Unlike playing four notes and giving someone an idea of what chord you're dealing with. If you play C A E G, well you could propose some other possibilities... A-7 is the obvious one, especially with context, but if you start with that, those 4 notes communicate a pretty likely C6.
C E G Bb would be quite clearly C7. Abmaj9#5? Possible, but you're probably going to hear C7 right away if the bassist starts with that. We're trying to get everyone on the same page right? So the bassist has this power to play the right 4 notes and communicate a sound of a chord to other musicians.
Since we're communicating with others, it's about getting the other musicians to understand what you want to say. He approaches music in a scientific way, and ears and communication this way too, so I understand it as him trying to find a way to communicate something fast and musically with those 4 notes that he has yet to find.
I don't feel like I really said anything other than what he already wrote haha... but I don't know if that clarifies at all?
IMHO, Probably the best thing you can do to inform your ear is to work these things out slowly on piano.
Yeah there is a bottom line which is does it make sense to your ears. But definitely putting theory behind things helps.
It's all D- right, but I see him giving the line movement forward with some kinds of tension. Almost like we're alternating often from a bar of D- to a bar of A7 to a bar of D- to a bar of A7, to create that gravity. Of course it's still all there in D- but that way it has a nice pull. We see a lot of those C#s in the second/fourth bars which really pull us back to D MINOR.
Then there are nice motives, which to me explains the C natural in bar 13. Even before we get there in bars 3/4, there this 3 1 5 1, then a jump up an octave 3 then back down to the 1. It's like that big of a jump works because of the repetition but it's also surprising, it's really cool. Repetitions and motives let us fit in things that might not normally work.
So with all this repetition, and all this D- and the ear already hearing D- then he puts a C on the first beat in this descending diatonic motive. | 7 1 6 1 | 5 1 4 1 | etc. It kind of creates a nice tension putting the tonic on beats 2/4 it's like a punk rock drummer switching around the beat after it's been established long enough to create tension.
Well, that's how I'd personally understand all of that. Maybe others have other ideas.
Mr Carter definitely played intuitively, but in the practice room he was working things out methodically and systematically. My first lesson he tore me apart for having no system at all in my playing. So these may be lines of that moment without a single thought about theory, but it all comes from many hours of thinking about it beforehand.
Thank you for your kind words.
All my posts and comments, and questions are to promote musical education for our younger TB members through various opinions from various musicians.
And your post has done it.
Thank you.
Jazz is often intentionally ambiguous in regards to tonal centers. It gets deep real fast because a given set of tones can infer multiple keys. A chord can be seen as a pivot that takes a progression in a totally different direction inferred by chord extensions and inversions. The progression may establish a new key center, pass through multiple keys, or the sequence may just step temporarily outside of the existing tonality and return. IMHO, There are lot's of great/simple harmonic sequences that cannot be eloquently explained as functional with our system of theory, at least not with my level of understanding.
Sorry, didn't mean to infer you shouldn't seek ideas and advice. Only meant to say the piano is a great way to explore and internalize musical concepts.
Gees Guys - Getting a little off course here as regards the OP's question - this thread seems at times like a bit of a pissing contest between big names no doubt but a contest no less . As someone who admires folks like the OP who have started late yet still want to improve - I would suggest that note timing and duration in very , very fine increments are the key to better sounding playing . I can play walking patterns to time but they seldom have the musical grace of someone really skilled at playing around the beat cleverly . Once your brain is out of the way that immediacy can come along in your playing and it becomes more natural and second nature to you . As many have said here playing out is a great way to help that happen . Best of luck to the OP - Kelly
IMHO this thread is not about technique, it's about applying theory to improvise a walking bass line. No big fish or competition on this side of the keyboard, just a moderately skilled player trying to help.
Have a nice day.
Really ? It was my impression that the OP's post was complaining about not being able to play walking lines as well as she would like - and not being fluent at deciding what to play when faced with an unscripted situation . Seems like the first is a question of technique but maybe I just don't know enough to judge these things as well as moderately skilled players do . Certainly , the second issue does concern theory and how to apply it appropriately but I don't believe that was all that was mentioned in the original post . I stand by my criticism of how the thread developed but that's not the most important point by any stretch - the real question is how the OP sees things and how she feels about the info provided and topics discussed - Kelly
Rather than continuing to derail the thread, why don't we ask the OP?
@Bass Momma, How can we better address your needs. Would you like to discuss how to apply theory, how to improve your technique, or something else? Or, are you satisfied for now with the information and ideas we have shared?
You seem to have a lot of theory down which is great. However, you don't seem to have much practical application of theory. It looks like you need to get out and play with other musicians either at a jam each week or in a garage band. Your walking bass skills will improve greatly once you put them to use in a live setting. At least that is what worked for me. I have no theory to speak of yet I can go to a blues jam and hold my own just following along. I have even done this at a jazz jam, playing old standards. Get out and play. Also, as was previously mentioned, play along with recordings. When you listen to the radio, train your ear to listen to the bass line. Let it sink in and when you are playing at a jam or with friends, it will come to you. It looks like you are definitely on the right track, you just need to get out and put your theory to practice. Good luck and keep thumpin'.
Most weeks we go to a blues jam. That's huge fun.
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Thank you! I really appreciate the information, thoughts and support shown on this thread. In learning, I find there's a tension between path and goal - walking the walk to become a better musician, and having in your mind how you'd like to be (maybe in 10 years, maybe in your dreams). That tension is good; it's what keeps me practicing for hours each day. It also brings anxiety, of the "do I have what it takes" variety. There aren't magic become-a-brilliant-bassist-overnight solutions (boo!), so it's enormously helpful to know how others experience this process.
Specifically, my sense has been that walking is taking me onto whole new territory. Onward!
Thanks! Becoming natural, that's the thing - integrating what you're learning so that it becomes yours. Doesn't happen overnight.