What's wrong with SWR?

[CrocMule]

I know this is a total noob question. A lot of you on this site were gigging musicians back in the heyday of SWR and witnessed their downfall when Fender bought them out. So I feel the need to play catchup here and ask for a little history and perspective.

What's wrong with the pre-Fender stuff? It seems like lot of people here and elsewhere think they're inferior for whatever reason, and the market for used SWR stuff is through the floor cheap, even pre-Fender.

I bought a red face Bass 350 in perfect condition for $350 about 15 years ago (ouch!). I'd be lucky to get half that now, but I love it -- I think it sounds great. Not really versatile, but it does what it does well. It's totally solid.

A few months ago I picked up an SM-400 for $125, so I can bi-amp 2 cabs -- a Big Ben 18" and an Eden EX1128 that I bought recently just for the whizzer cone-- just to use as the top end for the 18. (I don't have much experience with piezo tweeters, but when I tried one I wasn't impressed).

I was never a gigging bassist. I haven't gigged on anything for several years. I'm primarily a home recording hack, so this stuff never needs to move out of my little studio. The Big Ben I got for $100 ten years ago (just couldn't pass it up). It's big and awkward as hell, but I never have to move it. Outside of the occasional jam when friends come to town, it never even gets turned up loud.

I've heard that bi-amping was big in the '90s -- why has that changed? Sore backs? The little EX1128 sounds great on top of the 18 -- I feel like I've found my holy grail of bass rigs (as scrappy as it is).

 

[Gearhead17]

For me, I found SWR heads to be filled with low end, not much midrange (200hz to 700hz), and a lot of clarity. That tonal profile never appealed to me and was useless for the rock based cover bands I was a part of. Bi-amping seemed like a waste of time and I always got more bang for my buck with all-purpose bass cabs. With the SWR cabinets, I never saw the magic either. Perhaps the pairing of the SWR Cabinets and the SWR heads was the reason, but I will never know.

There was also a bunch of threads regarding the "Enhance" knob and how you can bypass it to get a flatter tone on the head. That Enhance knob was the reason I could never bond with those heads. Here is the summarized version of the thread: SWR Aural Enhancer Bypass Mod revisited and updated

Lastly, if you are happy with your SWR gear, ENJOY IT! Don't worry about our opinions.

 

[JW56789]

The Steven W Rabe era was a thing in its day. Rabe had previously worked for the original Acoustic Control Corporation (not the ghost of that brand name now owned by Samick, and which products have the same name and evocative logos, the ONLY connection to the previous ACC), went out on his own and began designing and building the amp lines as SWR. The original cabinets were designed by David Nordschow who would later go on to sell similar bins and his own amps as David Eden, another gone to the history books line in its original corporate version, before it was sold (twice).

These days, pre-Fender SWR rigs can be nice, but as with most all discontinued amps where the original company folded, the farther out you go time-wise, maintenance, repair, and original parts become harder and harder to find. Used at home, some of these pieces MIGHT last quite a while, or drop dead tonight. Gigging with one (for me) would be Russian roulette, waiting for the Mystic White Smoke Ring to materialize.

We bi-amped (with wildly varying degreesof success) back in the day as the bass amps (save for SVT's or the big Acoustics) just crapped out at their supposed outputs of 200watts, speaker cabinets were heavy, and you'd show up with a rig pushing 200 pounds and get killed by a guitar player with a single 12 50w Peavey Pacer.

So you bought one of the rack mount preamps (Yamaha PB1, Alembic F2B, the Kerns, and on and on) hooked it to a Stereo PA amp (Peavey CS800, Crown DC300, Crests later) run the low side for the 15's or 18's through Channel A and the highs through Channel B to some 10's or 12's. This was way louder, heavier, and expensive, plus you got to play cabinet roulette: Did I use some bass guitar cabinets (NEVER meant for biamping) or spring for real PA Bins (NEVER meant for bass guitar alone, sounded way too, too clean for many) that were often even more expensive and heavier still. Looked cool as hell though . . . .

These days, like dial telephones, technology has moved on. Amps are far more powerul, far smaller and lighter, and cabinet design and the speakers themselves are as far ahead of those old days as an F22 is to a P38.

So I'd say, that SWR could be fun but don't bet your gig on it, and bi-amping is an interesting dead end. But hey, it's fun to play 'what if', and I've found it a big part of learning your way. But never underestimate how important it is to hear yourself properly, even at home.

 

[coreyfyfe]

The industry has moved to lighter weight power amps and speakers that can do the SWR modern scooped/bright thing as good or better.

Not much more to it in my opinion. A drummer friend had an old pre-fender bass 750 and big Bertha 2x15. Used to use that amp for rehearsals fairly often right up until the power switch shorted and smoked up our practice. Had a good sound and did 750 watts at 4 ohms and more if you went down to 2.6 ohms. It was also huge and weighed 33lbs.

If you want 750 watts at 4 ohms now with a clean/modern preamp you can get that with a 5lbs class D amp for $5-600.

 

[CrocMule]

Hey Thanks GearHead17, I'll read that thread. So it's a tone thing for you. You're right, there is practically no dirt from the SWR tube pre. It's a very straightforward clean sound. I solved that problem with a Swollen Pickle.

 

[CrocMule]

These days, pre-Fender SWR rigs can be nice, but as with most all discontinued amps where the original company folded, the farther out you go time-wise, maintenance, repair, and original parts become harder and harder to find. Used at home, some of these pieces MIGHT last quite a while, or drop dead tonight. Gigging with one (for me) would be Russian roulette, waiting for the Mystic White Smoke Ring to materialize.

Ha! I can definitely see the logic there. I'm not as intimate with the PITAs of shlepping heavy gear back and forth to gigs. I've also never had to rely on amps, so the fear of letting the smoke out wasn't a part of my scene. Thanks for all the history and perspective -- I appreciate it.

Not really worried what other people think -- just curious. I admit, I've only played through a friend's modern bass amp once during a jam -- I never had the opportunity to really explore what it was about. It sounded fantastic to my ear (I think it was an Aguilar head with an Eden 4x10). But I guess I didn't really get the appeal of buying new. Yes, I'm hopelessly behind the times in just about every aspect of my life (especially fashion), so it's no surprise that I gravitated to the outdated technology.

Maybe I should try out a modern amp and cab sometime? Is that the gist?

 

[Drifter8230]

SWR is all I've ever known personally, I've had an SWR Working Mans rig with 2 2x10s since I was like 18. I gigged with it and definitely put it through it's paces. I just never got anything else because by the time I started making money I wasn't playing at the time and they sat in storage.

It's nothing if not consistent clean tone. Kind of blank, but it's never done me wrong. Until I get my new Darkglass rig, I have no issues with keeping my SWR gear. It's reliable solid gear!

 

[CrocMule]

Holy Kapow Gearhead17, thank you so much for sharing that link. What a wealth of information! I've never soldered on a PCB, but I'm going to try that bypass mod.

 

[mmbongo]

Great stuff 25 years ago....but so was my laserdisc player. And I literally just threw about 50 laserdiscs in the dumpster over the weekend.

 

[CrocMule]

which dumpster?

 

[Al Kraft]

I can say for sure that pre-Fender SWR heads work their best when you use an external variable HPF. I still have my SM-400S which was recently checked out by an engineer/master technician many of us know and it got a clean bill of health. Obviously parts availability for certain components are a concern, but that head has many thousands of hours on it and never failed to deliver.

SWR stuff of that vintage was oriented towards studio clean sounds and wasn't intended to be a solid state Ampeg SVT clone. SWR was a sound for where the bass players were going with style and voicing in the late 80's/early 90's. IME people either like that sound or they don't. Most of the heads required the operator to know how to drive and were not simple plug and play rigs. I still love my SM-400S, but for a novice operator it's easier to get a really bad tone than exactly what you're looking for.

The only bi-amping deal that I think really works well for bass is the system GK has in their heads and cabs. In that case it is most useful when you are playing more in the OD/distortion area. I used the bi-amp function occasionally on my SWR in a single 115 and 210 cab set-up. In all honesty since both were full range cabs I'm not sure I was doing myself a favor and never could hear a real difference...and I tried to convince myself there was one.

IME running the SM-400S bridged into an 8 Ohm load was when it sounded its best. I used that head paired with a Hartke 4.5XL for many years and loved the sound. It was a quick, clean rig that sat nicely in a busy mix and could fill most any size venue with solid bass.

FWIW, I don't think Fender ownership destroyed the brand's reliability or quality. Some will argue that it actually improved in the Fender years. At the end of the day though, Fender did in fact end the brand's life, but I suspect it was more of a business decision than anything else.

 

[roller]

Nothing at all wrong with SWR. As others noted, it was great stuff back in the 90s... a fresh sound (the "L.A. tone")... but wow, compared to the power of today's class-D heads and lightweight neodymium cabs, I just don't see how I could own an SWR rig again. And oh yeah, today's stuff sounds really good, too!

I know this is a total noob question. A lot of you on this site were gigging musicians back in the heyday of SWR and witnessed their downfall when Fender bought them out. So I feel the need to play catchup here and ask for a little history and perspective.

What's wrong with the pre-Fender stuff? It seems like lot of people here and elsewhere think they're inferior for whatever reason, and the market for used SWR stuff is through the floor cheap, even pre-Fender.

I bought a red face Bass 350 in perfect condition for $350 about 15 years ago (ouch!). I'd be lucky to get half that now, but I love it -- I think it sounds great. Not really versatile, but it does what it does well. It's totally solid.

A few months ago I picked up an SM-400 for $125, so I can bi-amp 2 cabs -- a Big Ben 18" and an Eden EX1128 that I bought recently just for the whizzer cone-- just to use as the top end for the 18. (I don't have much experience with piezo tweeters, but when I tried one I wasn't impressed).

I was never a gigging bassist. I haven't gigged on anything for several years. I'm primarily a home recording hack, so this stuff never needs to move out of my little studio. The Big Ben I got for $100 ten years ago (just couldn't pass it up). It's big and awkward as hell, but I never have to move it. Outside of the occasional jam when friends come to town, it never even gets turned up loud.

I've heard that bi-amping was big in the '90s -- why has that changed? Sore backs? The little EX1128 sounds great on top of the 18 -- I feel like I've found my holy grail of bass rigs (as scrappy as it is).

 

[Samatza]

There was nothing wrong with SWR and the brand had a great reputation in its day.

I used to rent a lot of gear as we were travelling a lot and played a lot of SWR rigs.

A lot of companies get some good traction in the industry, are sold off to a major corporation and then disappear altogether.

Sometimes it’s a financial consideration and others it’s because big corporations find it hard to handle boutique brands. They don’t understand the products.

Most gear for bass is either born out of a personal requirement or a request from players that become an engineering challenge for someone who is interested in solving problems. Accounting and marketing departments are full of people that are degree qualified for what they do but don’t have any idea what the product does, there is no passion at that end of the business, just numbers and specs so often it’s not driven to succeed and fades away.

 

[JTE]

The history frequently forgets that Rave had been gone from SWR for several years when FMIC bought the company. And more importantly, the brand was already sliding downward in the market.

 

[chadds]

Yep like a falling stock I ran out and sold my two Gs and two Bass 750s. They never broke and left me high and dry. My prior two SM-400s were equally reliable and great sounding. I kept my BBII. It is amazing. No one has made anything that does what it can do.

If you like their sound or absence of a sound then make your self happy. There are too many people that want you to have todays new thing. Get what you sound great through. This new and neo may not sound like you wish.

It can deliver the pure openess for your Fender bass to sound vintage motown or rock and roll or your booteeque to deliver hi fidelity. SWR has seen me through many gigs, studio sessions and two CDs.

 

[Axtman]

SWR is great gear! They were one of the first "high fidelity" sounding amps geared toward clean tones.

I have owned lots SWR amps. As was mentioned previously, many people are looking for lightweight Class D amps and Neodymium speakers. You practically can't give away older heavier, lower-powered, rack gear.

BTW, I found I liked the sound of SWR gear that has a tube preamp especially when using an active bass.

 

[red_rhino]

Like a lot of others, I owned SWR amps back in the 90's. First a Redhead combo, and then a larger SM-400 with a Goliath 410 and a Big Ben 18. Great sounding gear, but I never felt that it lived up to its potential when it came to a live band. And bi-amping? Well that just never came close to being workable in most live band situations I was in. Eventually moved to an Eden Nav & QSC rack setup with Accugroove cabs, but replaced all of that with Class-D stuff. Way more practical.

 

[seedokebass]

I had SWR heads for years! I had a Bass 350 for a long time, sold it to go to a 750x. I never got into biamping, didn't have the cash or was busy spending it on basses.

I have to respectfully disagree with @Gearhead17 on the midrange aspect: the Bass 350 with any of the cabinets I had were midrange beasts! That was the reason I moved away from SWR though, midrange for days and a lot of detail but not enough low end impact. I had a lot of different cabs and it just never scratched the low end itch.

Now you can get so much more tone and features in smaller and lighter packages. I love Aguilar's Tone Hammer 500... So much tone and thump in a tiny package!

 

[4Mal]

weight and sometimes heat build up. Never had one fry but a WM-15 I used hot hot enough for me to be concerned...

 

[pfschim]

nothing "wrong" with SWR gear if you like what they do. I never liked them back in the day myself (and I was a steady gigging/touring fool from the early 70's thru the late 80's so I saw my share of SWR rigs) ...a clicky/clanky kind of mess that just did not meet my tone goals at all. Kind of heavy too. But amps are kind of like chocolates ... some people like nougat and some don't ... doesn't mean nougat is bad.

and these days, with all the advances there have been in amps and cabs, I really don't get the interest other than folks chasing some kind of "vintage" 80's tone ideal.

but hey, play what you like, like what you play. If it sounds good to you (and works in your musical context) it IS good.