Why do musicians have such a hard time with replacing someone?

[brianrost]

There's always reasons to put up with someone.

I was in a band for six years with a great drummer who had mental health issues. We put up with it because he was so good...best player in the band, no question. We finally fired him but never found a drummer who could come even close to what he could do.

Then there was the harmonica player who was able to get all us all these easy, big money gigs but could barely play

 

[gorneyg]

The devil you know...

 

[trofud]

Not for me!! I just love bringing in new people, especially better musicians than I am, it gives me a good kick in the butt to be better at what I do. And new blood means new ideas, new ways of seeing things.

It's easy to fall into a false "comfort zone", especially when band mates become your friends, when you invite them for dinner with their spouses/gf... Then it's tougher to make the right decision about them because emotions are strong in the equation...

I prefer to treat this (bands) like a business.

 

[Wisebass]

That's why i wish the Real Book was produced for rock bands so everyone knows rock standards and can read them on sight like we do in jazz

Hi PauFerro

Don' t get me wrong here I get what you want to say (I can sight read)

But if you need the book to play "rock standards",

you don 't even pass the auditions!

(at least not for the bands I played in!)

greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[Wisebass]

But once a band is established, it seems harder to get someone to come to the table with some folks.

Hi waveman

Replacing real (active) members in a band is a pain in the a$$!

There is "competence" (song writing, arranging) the hang (being cool or not)
sex appeal (female singers)....

It' s hard to be objective, once you know somebody!

Just like a working relationship...

... sometimes, it's cheaper to keep'er

No Spidey

I think it' s more like a couple!

You keep her to warm your bed...

and anyway a divorce is too expensive!


I think that it' s not a" working relationship",

that keeps you to stick with someone in your band,

who is a "problem child" (the word "child" kinda says it!)



greetings


Wise

 

[Kragnorak]

'Sweet Emotion', anyone? I like (respect) the song (now)... it's actually a pretty good workout, but I bet every cover band in Columbus has it in their set list... at the very least, play a different overplayed Aerosmith song.

Interesting - I've never played it or heard a cover band play it. I'd enjoy that one but it's never come up. I even play in a band that does 'Toys in the Attic'!

 

[TinyE]

i would say a lot of it is in chemistry. the successful bands i have been in were because we liked being around each other. we also clicked well when we created music. The drummer and I left a trio at the same time, and the guitarist got a new bass and drummer. I went to see them play, and the music we had written sounded like country because the bass and drums had put their own flavor on it. It didn't flow, and sounded odd (no ego in that statement). His new band lasted a few months and he called it quits. It's hard to re-create something that grew organically through friendship and lots of time together, and maybe you shouldn't re-create it, but just go into it knowing it will be completely different than before.

 

[Kragnorak]

That's why i wish the Real Book was produced for rock bands so everyone knows rock standards and can read them on sight like we do in jazz. I'm getting there as in my rock group, they are all jazz players and play off charts -- if only the singer would stop changing the structure on us!!

This is such an interesting yet distracting idea that it could use it's own thread, lol! I was actually in a jazz band where the BL would add charts for rock and pop tunes into the songbook (often as a surprise addition on gigs). I found that it caused me a LOT of cognitive dissonance. Here's why: when I see charts, my inclination is to improvise my own lines. Sometimes this is good. Other times it is bad, as in when I know that the original line would be better for holding the structure of the song together.

Again, sometimes the charts would be a surprise, so picture this on a gig: I'm playing a 70s R&B tune. It has a real chord progression (as opposed to a series of riffs), so should work well, right? But as I'm playing I'm vaguely remembering the way the song should go. So I approximate the feel by playing notes within the chord and nailing the hits I remember. BUT the drummer is just looking at a form and plows through, missing the hits, and we don't sound in sync. The singer is confused by what she just heard because she is expecting certain audio queues, so she falters and loses confidence.

Meanwhile, we'd be perfectly in sync if either a) we had just learned the tune off of a recording or b) we were looking at the chart and purposely re-interpreting it in either a jazz or jam mindset.

 

[chaosMK]

If it's a covers or standards type of band sure, everyone is replaceable. Seats are easily enough filled by anyone who can play the songs and deliver the necessary sound and style imitations.

In an original band sometimes members contribute creatively or play an important role in the collaboration, or bring in a hard-to-replicate signature sound or musical vibe. In that case it can be hard to fire someone because it will change the character of your overall unit.

 

[fhm555]

Not one to complain, so when the poop gets deep and everyone is jumping through hoops to take up slack for a single problem child, i tender my resignation.
Which is why i’ve always favored being in a situation with a competent assertive BL who is not shy about establishing a no drama/BS policy as your introduction to the group when hired; then following up as required.
I’m not talking control freak or unbending taskmaster, i favor the iron fist in a velvet glove method of management so i tend to look for that when seeking a cog position.
I believe most of the struggle is lack of understanding one’s place in the food chain.

 

[StatesideRambler]

I've lived a charmed life, I guess. Drama was rife in my upbringing but rare in the bands I played in through the years. Maybe I was just drawn to the right projects but the one time I fell in with a five-piece screaming match I packed my gear in mid-rehearsal and told everyone that I wouldn't deliberately live that way. They all believed that arguing was the path to greatness, they weren't going to change their ways so my best bet was to leave.

 

[Kragnorak]

They all believed that arguing was the path to greatness,

One time I was in an original hard rock/metal band that would play double bills with another group. One of their guitarists came out to eat with us after a gig. His eyes were wide as a child's the whole night. "Wow, you guys actually get along together? My band fights like crazy!" On songwriter: "Members of my band bring in ideas for a song, and then we fight over which parts are best." "Wow, you guys are all fancy and stuff, eating at this after-hours Chinese restaurant. Ummmm, do you think they serve hamburgers here?"

After playing a few gigs with this group, they seemed cohesive on stage, but then when hanging with their guitarist we learned that they were all in an abusive relationship.

 

[morgansterne]

It's easy to replace members . . .
1) if you play all cliched tunes
2) if you jam everything out so long that the new member only has to learn twenty songs*
3) if you play exactly like the recording

none of the bands I've been in have hit all these qualifications. The new member has to learn 40 songs, remember where we put extra vocal breaks, learn the ending we arranged for the song. And all this for maybe $100 a gig. It's hard to find people good enough to do all this (in a couple of weeks) who are willing to do it for not a lot of money.



*Our soundguy timed another local band's version of "dear mr. fantasy" at FORTY THREE MINUTES.

 

[two fingers]

Not for me!! I just love bringing in new people, especially better musicians than I am, it gives me a good kick in the butt to be better at what I do. And new blood means new ideas, new ways of seeing things.

It's easy to fall into a false "comfort zone", especially when band mates become your friends, when you invite them for dinner with their spouses/gf... Then it's tougher to make the right decision about them because emotions are strong in the equation...

I prefer to treat this (bands) like a business.

Sometimes new blood brings with it new infections and disease. I, like you, however, prefer to roll the dice. If somebody sucks (talent or personality wise) they gotta go.

If you're my best friend, I'll feel bad about your firing. If I don't know you, I won't feel bad at all. But you still gotta go.

I have run several businesses. How hungry or poor you are or how much I like you has nothing to do with how long you stay employed by me. Those aspects may make me give you a second chance after a major screw up. But it won't keep you there forever. If you are not a good fit, you gotta go. You are dragging the organization down.

Music is no different.

 

[StyleOverShow]

A festival/show band I play in replaced the keyboard player in the fall. He was/is a musical director type with excellent reading and arrangement skills. He was a very busy player and didn’t get along with the band or venue techs.

His replacement is an excellent player, in his 20’s, in high demand. His other bands schedule has cut our playing in half as he has previous commitments. We are ending that cycle as our calendars catch up but it hasn’t really worked out the way we thought.

In retrospect, the original player would have been easier to keep.

You just can’t tell....

 

[mellowinman]

Because most people are cowards. They care more about some shiftless loser whose not pulling their weight than they care about the people they should care about: THEIR AUDIENCE.

 

[marmadaddy]

'Sweet Emotion', anyone? I like (respect) the song (now)... it's actually a pretty good workout, but I bet every cover band in Columbus has it in their set list... at the very least, play a different overplayed Aerosmith song.

And I'll bet 90% or more of the bassists play it wrong. Want to nail an audition with a classic rock band? Learn and play the bass line in this song correctly.

 

[Kragnorak]

And I'll bet 90% or more of the bassists play it wrong. Want to nail an audition with a classic rock band? Learn and play the bass line in this song correctly.

It would be interesting to make a list of simple-but-tricky songs to use as audition pieces to see how good people are at learning nuances with musicianship. For guitar, ZZ Top's "Cheap Sunglasses" comes to mind as a simple tune that a guitarist will muck up if they don't fingerpick and drop their high E string.

 

[JRA]

i don't think it's difficult to find replacements. sometimes it requires patience. but it's not difficult.

 

[Kragnorak]

Because most people are cowards. They care more about some shiftless loser whose not pulling their weight than they care about the people they should care about: THEIR AUDIENCE.

I can see your point about being afraid to replace someone when they are doing a disservice to paying customers, but placing the emphasis on the Audience in that way is not exactly the opposite of cowardice. Most performers pander to and attempt to please their audience, so that's not special. The brave ones are the musicians that don't give a rat's about them. Bach said "Every note for God", not "Every note for Audience". Beethoven said to his patron, "You are but a prince. I am Beethoven [, mutha...]" Charles Ives didn't bother with conventional outlets after a while. He used money from his insurance business to produce his own shows and premiered works that increasingly impressed music critics and other composers while alienating audiences. When they walked out during his discordant pieces, he would jeer stuff like "What's the matter, can't take it, ya sissies?!"

I often think that we've gotten too far away from the priorities that makes music awesome, which is one of the many reasons why what we do is becoming a disposable commodity. I most admire the individuals like Frank Zappa that figured out how to be entertaining to an audience while simultaneously educating them and refraining from too much compromise.