(Why) do Stingrays sound killer in the mix?

[pbass2]

New rule: if YOU can’t make a PBass sit well in the mix, with it’s signature low mid CHUNK that just WORKS, than YOU suck.

In my experience it’s the hi end basses of the modern era, with the full spectrum, hear-every-harmonic, piano clarity tone that are the hardest to EQ in a mix.

Yep. Like it or not it's just the way it is. The P with its distinct mid profile just slots in there most of time. Same goes for a Ray or a J IMO, but they "slot in" to a different "slot" if you will, so you choose one over the other based on that--but you know how they're gonna sit. The instrument that has that modern full range sound (that may sound good on its own) typically requires more fiddling in a mix. It's ironic, really - those kinds of basses with all those frequencies going on, that huge sound, often end up a little "lost" or undefined in many mixes. You can start cutting with EQ of course and whittling it down into something usable that speaks clearly, but it's certainly not plug-n-play.

 

[P. Aaron]

Dude is making the rounds tonight! "My Message Must Be Foisted on the Entire TB Populace!!"

And quite the quick responder to comments, too!...

Now all that's left to do is wait and watch for the Alert notice to go off....

(Seriously, get over yourself....)

Have we introduced tone woods into this thread yet?

If not now, when?

 

[hasbeen]

for the same reason Ken Smith basses do (sit "in", cut through the mix)- mids

 

[Lance Bunyon]

It's the pickups partnered with the EBMM preamp. Feels like a John Madden response, but it is what it is.

 

[burgerdj]

Without being sacrilegious, the holy trinity is J, P, and MM. I’m not saying other basses don’t sound as good, but most basses are variations on these themes. These basses are also very familiar to studio and FOH engineers, so they know how to dial them in for optimal results.

 

[P. Aaron]

It's the pickups partnered with the EBMM preamp. Feels like a John Madden response, but it is what it is.

You mean a Stingray gets penetration.

 

[saucypebble]

Maybe we should talk about the terms "sit in" and "cut through". My understanding:
"Sitting in the mix" is the FOH engineers job. He should give every instrument/line signal a spot. Of course we can make his life easier by delivering a signal that works well with e.g. the guitars. Especially important if you find yourself in smaller venues with less experienced engineers.

The "cut through" is where your bass tone becomes important. I guess with enough EQ and knowing where you have space you can make every bass cut through but different basses have different sweet spots. Ideally you choose the one whos natural characteristics are nice in that frequence range.

So, two components:
[1] A base sound that FOH can work well with
[2] A bass whos character you like at the frequency range that is needed to come through, relative to rest of the band

Opinions?

 

[Wfrance3]

FWIW, I have a bass that is completely passive. Wired up with Delano HE/S (4-wire) soapbar pickups.
I had it in one bass with switches (series-single coil-parallel), but moved them to a different bass that I didn't want to drill for switches.
The bass is currently hard wired with neck pickup as a single-coil and the bridge pickup parallel. VVT. Has really good sting-ray character. Also and again, FWIW, if I roll the bridge vol off entirely and dial in the vol and tone on the neck pickup just right, I can get into P territory pretty quick.

 

[socialleper]

Mids.

The growling lo mids you get from a humbucker near the bridge punches through. I don't like MM basses at all, but I have learned to pan to the bridge a little on my Spector basses to cut through better.
It's the same reason Warwick Thumb basses hit like they do.

 

[Windreaper]

Maybe we should talk about the terms "sit in" and "cut through". My understanding:
"Sitting in the mix" is the FOH engineers job. He should give every instrument/line signal a spot. Of course we can make his life easier by delivering a signal that works well with e.g. the guitars. Especially important if you find yourself in smaller venues with less experienced engineers.

The "cut through" is where your bass tone becomes important. I guess with enough EQ and knowing where you have space you can make every bass cut through but different basses have different sweet spots. Ideally you choose the one whos natural characteristics are nice in that frequence range.

So, two components:
[1] A base sound that FOH can work well with
[2] A bass whos character you like at the frequency range that is needed to come through, relative to rest of the band

Opinions?

Well yes, enough processing can make anything work. Consider vocal mics as an analogy. SM58 is the standard, but requires a crap ton of EQ to sound decent: HPF as high as possible, wide mid cut to open up the mic, find the freq of the annoying proximity effect... or you could use a mic that sounds right out of the box. OR you could put Celine Dion in front of the mic.

 

[Mike Vee]

I couldn’t care less about rock bass, but a Stingray sure kills it for retro funk fingerstyle sounds, no matter what genre they happen to be used in.

 

[pbass2]

I couldn’t care less about rock bass, but a Stingray sure kills it for retro funk fingerstyle sounds, no matter what genre they happen to be used in.

I think they're really cool in some settings that are not funk-leaning, like when Carl Radle used a Ray with Eric Clapton in the 70's. Another one that comes to mind is Tony Levin on John Lennon's "Double Fantasy" album. Does not jump out and scream "Stingray!" at all. In fact he's not far removed from the Klaus Voorman pbass kinda vibe on that album, yet with a Ray with the mutes on (AFAIK).

 

[Mike Vee]

I think they're really cool in some settings that are not funk-leaning, like when Carl Radle used a Ray with Eric Clapton in the 70's. Another one that comes to mind is Tony Levin on John Lennon's "Double Fantasy" album. Does not jump out and scream "Stingray!" at all. In fact he's not far removed from the Klaus Voorman pbass kinda vibe on that album, yet with a Ray with the mutes on (AFAIK).

For sure!

 

[FirewalZ]

Without being sacrilegious, the holy trinity is J, P, and MM. I’m not saying other basses don’t sound as good, but most basses are variations on these themes. These basses are also very familiar to studio and FOH engineers, so they know how to dial them in for optimal results.

I call it the Leo Trio I have a pair or each, J’s, P,s and Stingrays. Why two of each you may ask, because I match them up to be different tonally. For example a 77 Jazz and an 85 MIJ 60’s jazz, while both passive jazz basses, they sound a lot different from each other. My 95 3 band and 2018 Special Stingrays are both unmistakably Stingrays, but are capable of different sounds.

 

[ElMon]

None of this to say that a super complicated EQ (to me) and a dozen laminate tonewoods on a 6-string platform can not absolutely KILL (I’ve heard people pull it off) in a mix, but these ‘standard’ designs … J’s P’s and Rays … are ‘standard’ bass tones in the heads of a lot of non bass playing musicians who might like to hire you because you can pull off ‘those sounds’ they grew up hearing.

Case in point: I have a few really nice NYC Sadowsky basses.

My Olinto P5 with that classic combo … foam mute, bent plate bridge, flatwounds, and alder/Brazilian rosewood … gets requested the most by people who hire me.

 

[groooooove]

8 Health Benefits of Carrots

 

[bigdaddybass12]

Easy,
1. Not muddy like a p bass
2. Bigger sound than a jazz bass.
3 has the “punch” that the others are missing
(This will be good for some negative responses)

 

[BassGuyFL]

If you're bass sounds really pretty on it's own, it will get lost in a mix. One of the most illuminating things for any bassist to hear is the SOLOED bass track from one of their favorite albums, to find that the tone is a clanky distorted snotty mess with no bottom end, yet when the rest of the band is in, it sounds like Godzilla. The ears are a funny thing. Consider how much distortion/overdrive has to be put on a bass before it actually sounds distorted in a mix.

This was a big revelation watching one of the biggest mixers in the business work. You would think that he would try and tweak each individual track to the nth degree but it was the opposite. He mostly pushed up the faders and saw how everything sounded overall. He would do tweaking here and there especially on vocals but not as much as you’d think. He’s one of top three guys in the biz so he gets high-quality tracks from the top players, so he had good stuff to start with.

 

[ToddB1963]

Easy,
1. Not muddy like a p bass
2. Bigger sound than a jazz bass.
3 has the “punch” that the others are missing
(This will be good for some negative responses)

Well, this is not meant as a negative response, but with respect, you're making a few generalizations there, and I say that as an experienced practitioner of the Stingray as well as the other basses in question.

1) If a P bass is muddy, it's the player, not the bass. A Precision with flats, a hunk of foam under the bridge cover, and tone turned up is anything but muddy, especially when played with a pick.

2) Jazz basses have a big sound through a powerful amp, and dare I say, a much sweeter top end than a Stingray.

3) Yes, a Stingray is punchy, but again, if a player can't make a Precision or Jazz 'punch', it's the player, not the instrument.

Stingrays are good basses with an iconic signature sound I happen to love. I have two and gigged one of those exclusively for five years, but like every bass, they have their shortcomings. IMO they're no match for a Fender when played with a pick, especially when strung with round wounds because they tend to sound very raspy and thin in the higher register - not a sound I enjoy. Others might and good for them, I don't. As a funk bass however, they're unbeatable, especially the old two-banders. Rock bass? Yes of course. Everything else - not so much. That's not to say you can't make them work. You can, but the sound is a little too 'in your face' for certain things. The signature snarl needs to be tamed somewhat.

 

[AR_Soundman]

This was a big revelation watching one of the biggest mixers in the business work. You would think that he would try and tweak each individual track to the nth degree but it was the opposite. He mostly pushed up the faders and saw how everything sounded overall. He would do tweaking here and there especially on vocals but not as much as you’d think. He’s one of top three guys in the biz so he gets high-quality tracks from the top players, so he had good stuff to start with.

Now I am curious.

What you said is the normal in my world. When I was a rookie, I loved tracking bands. Hated mixing. Mix guys loved my stuff. Push faders to unity and you had a good mix to start with. I since became a mix guy before moving into TV / Film post production work. Home recording took off, Pros with home vanity rooms, and tracking sucked so bad I went Post Production.


One thing I didn't read so far, production. Tunes with my favorite bass tracks are with artists that have have songs with space for an interesting bass line. Not shoehorned in at mix time.