Double Bass Audio Sprockets ToneDexter

[DoubleMIDI]

Even with a ToneDexter which takes the pickup sound from the string and changes it’s output to the output of a mic, a solid body EUB will not sound like a DB.

The reason for this is that there is no interaction between a vibrating top (with the typical DB resonance regions) and the strings. So the string does not get modulated by the top vibrations which makes the sound of a DB note more lively. And even with vibrating body EUBs the resonant frequencies are much higher than with a DB, so not the same modulation frequencies.

Electronic sound manipulation is almost always unidirectional. Otherwise you need an actor on your EUB that shakes the bridge a bit controlled by the electronic simulated top resonances.

I don’t won’t to argue against the ToneDexter, just to show that there are limits to any electronic post processing.

 

[Hasty]

Even with a ToneDexter which takes the pickup sound from the string and changes it’s output to the output of a mic, a solid body EUB will not sound like a DB.

The reason for this is that there is no interaction between a vibrating top (with the typical DB resonance regions) and the strings. So the string does not get modulated by the top vibrations which makes the sound of a DB note more lively. And even with vibrating body EUBs the resonant frequencies are much higher than with a DB, so not the same modulation frequencies.

Electronic sound manipulation is almost always unidirectional. Otherwise you need an actor on your EUB that shakes the bridge a bit controlled by the electronic simulated top resonances.

I don’t won’t to argue against the ToneDexter, just to show that there are limits to any electronic post processing.

i understand your point… but the SLB200 isn’t a solid body. It might not have a huge resonant chamber, but it’s there. Also, considering that I’ve already been through the process I feel fairly confident in my assessment that it doesn’t sound completely terrible.

On it’s own the SLB200 sounds pretty decent, especially played pizz, but adding the ToneDexter gives it just a little extra oomph that really makes it fit in for live music.


While I prefer to play my “real” DB, this setup works surprisingly well for live jazz shows and setup/tear down is a breeze.


YMMV

 

[SteveFromBerlin]

Pleeeze provide sound samples or a short video.

 

[Hasty]

Pleeeze provide sound samples or a short video.

my plan was to try and document the process of creating a WaveMap for EUBs sometime this weekend. I might try to do a video of the process, but I’m terrible at making videos like this. I might try to write up the process with images and add audio files. If I don’t get time to do that I’ll at least capture some audio to share with you.

 

[Hasty]

I didn't have a ton of time to spend on this, but I wanted to share how I made my WaveMaps with different instruments.

Once again I'll link the page for the real instructions on how to do this. I'm mainly serving as a testament to let others know that if I can do it... they can do it.

(edit: I forgot to add the link!_
Audio Sprockets | Creating Custom WaveMaps for ToneDexter with a DAW

I selected my donor instrument and here are some of the particulars.

My trusty old double bass. It's nothing spectacular, but for some reason I've grown fond of it.



Microphone inputs:

AKG Condenser placed about three feet in front of the DB and slightly towards the treble side. Level with the bottom of the fingerboard.

Remic Green Mac placed under the center of the bridge.

Pickup:

Realist Lifeline

Preamp/Routing:

Grace Felix and MOTU M4:

The Grace Felix was used for the Remic and the Lifeline as separate channels, then into the MOTU as channel 2 and channel 3.

AKG Condenser mic was routed into channel 1 of the MOTU.

DAW used was Reaper.

First thing was to establish input channels in Reaper. Each channel was set to their respective inputs (One, Two, and Three).



Channels 1 and 2 were set as a Subgroup so that I could easily route them both back out and control their levels together while creating the WaveMap. Then I balanced the levels to make sure everything was working well together.



Then I recorded some sounds on the acoustic DB with a mix of Arco and Pizz with about a minute of random playing throughout the range of the instrument. Then I followed the instructions on the AudioSprockets website for Custom WaveMaps where Source instrument and Target instrument are different.

I routed everything back through the Grace Felix, because I'm super comfortable with it so it just made everything easier.





Then I completed the part where you tweak the EQ (steps 4-7 on the tutorial).

Next step was to see how everything sounded. Signal chain as follows:

Yamaha SLB200>ToneDexter>EA Doubler II> MAS 1,6 Cab.

Video was recorded with Zoom Q2N4K, which I spent about two minutes recording and playing the first thing that came to mind. Then I realized that I did a terrible job of framing the video because I was running out of time... decided the audio would be good enough to express the idea of what I was going for. Since this weekend is jam packed full of activities I figured it's basically now or never.

Maybe I can shoot a better quality video at some point in the future? Maybe I can even do a real how-to instead of this abbreviated thing.

I purposely recorded this thing with the Zoom and with the MAS cab so it would show how it sounds in a live setting and not run through a DAW. There was not sound processing post production. I only trimmed the beginning and end of the video for timing purposes.

Anyway, here's a link to the video:

 

[SteveFromBerlin]

I didn't have a ton of time to spend on this, but I wanted to share how I made my WaveMaps with different instruments.

Once again I'll link the page for the real instructions on how to do this. I'm mainly serving as a testament to let others know that if I can do it... they can do it.

(edit: I forgot to add the link!_
Audio Sprockets | Creating Custom WaveMaps for ToneDexter with a DAW

I selected my donor instrument and here are some of the particulars.

My trusty old double bass. It's nothing spectacular, but for some reason I've grown fond of it.

View attachment 4561785

Microphone inputs:

AKG Condenser placed about three feet in front of the DB and slightly towards the treble side. Level with the bottom of the fingerboard.

Remic Green Mac placed under the center of the bridge.

Pickup:

Realist Lifeline

Preamp/Routing:

Grace Felix and MOTU M4:

The Grace Felix was used for the Remic and the Lifeline as separate channels, then into the MOTU as channel 2 and channel 3.

AKG Condenser mic was routed into channel 1 of the MOTU.

DAW used was Reaper.

First thing was to establish input channels in Reaper. Each channel was set to their respective inputs (One, Two, and Three).

View attachment 4561788

Channels 1 and 2 were set as a Subgroup so that I could easily route them both back out and control their levels together while creating the WaveMap. Then I balanced the levels to make sure everything was working well together.

View attachment 4561795

Then I recorded some sounds on the acoustic DB with a mix of Arco and Pizz with about a minute of random playing throughout the range of the instrument. Then I followed the instructions on the AudioSprockets website for Custom WaveMaps where Source instrument and Target instrument are different.

I routed everything back through the Grace Felix, because I'm super comfortable with it so it just made everything easier.

View attachment 4561797

View attachment 4561798

Then I completed the part where you tweak the EQ (steps 4-7 on the tutorial).

Next step was to see how everything sounded. Signal chain as follows:

Yamaha SLB200>ToneDexter>EA Doubler II> MAS 1,6 Cab.

Video was recorded with Zoom Q2N4K, which I spent about two minutes recording and playing the first thing that came to mind. Then I realized that I did a terrible job of framing the video because I was running out of time... decided the audio would be good enough to express the idea of what I was going for. Since this weekend is jam packed full of activities I figured it's basically now or never.

Maybe I can shoot a better quality video at some point in the future? Maybe I can even do a real how-to instead of this abbreviated thing.

I purposely recorded this thing with the Zoom and with the MAS cab so it would show how it sounds in a live setting and not run through a DAW. There was not sound processing post production. I only trimmed the beginning and end of the video for timing purposes.

Anyway, here's a link to the video:

Wow, that sounds amazing! Thank you so much for your effort! This is the first time I‘m really thinking about buying a TD for this pupose. Might be a better investment than spending 200 bugs on a Full Circle.

Would you be willing to share or sell these wavemaps?

Again, great work!

 

[Hasty]

Wow, that sounds amazing! Thank you so much for your effort! This is the first time I‘m really thinking about buying a TD for this pupose. Might be a better investment than spending 200 bugs on a Full Circle.

Would you be willing to share or sell these wavemaps?

Again, great work!

I’d be more than happy to give it to you.

I think there’s a transfer utility that pulls the WaveMaps so they can be shared.

Glad you found it useful!

Chris

 

[kento]

I just knew this preamp.
Do you need to have a Computer to get full benefit from this preamp?(I only have an IPhone and a tablet)
Does it work enough without Computer?

 

[SteveFromBerlin]

I’d be more than happy to give it to you.

I think there’s a transfer utility that pulls the WaveMaps so they can be shared.

Glad you found it useful!

Chris

I may be able to borrow a ToneDexter from a friend (Cello player). If you'd be so kind and maybe send me a download link via DM or something, that would be extremely helpful!

Have a great weekend y'all!

 

[Mark Gollihur]

I just knew this preamp.
Do you need to have a Computer to get full benefit from this preamp?(I only have an IPhone and a tablet)
Does it work enough without Computer?

You don't need a computer to effectively use the ToneDexter. You might need to use a computer and an SD card if you want to update the firmware, or switch the firmware to "Bass Mode" if not already done for you, or do other extended features - but it's not strictly needed to operate the unit or create the WaveMaps.

 

[Hasty]

Mark is right. No computer needed for this part. Just the Tonedexter, your bass, and a microphone to set it up.

When I ordered mine, James was kind enough to preload the Bass version onto my unit. I’ve also updated my firmware on the unit which only takes a few minutes if you follow his excellent instructions. Frankly, I feel like this is one of the best supported “complex” devices out there. James has always answered any question I have, given great advice and tutorials, plus the community here has been very helpful in sharing their knowledge.

To clarify, the only reason I used a computer is because I was doing a non-standard sort of setup to get the best sound I could from an acoustic double bass to an electric double bass. However, I could probably do the exact same thing with a good parametric EQ, some patience and skip the computer altogether. Something like the Grace Felix, or maybe a Headway EDB… something with an XLR option. I could also do it with my iPhone, a camera connection kit, and a USB mixer or interface. The more I think about it the more options come to mind.

 

[statsc]

I just knew this preamp.
Do you need to have a Computer to get full benefit from this preamp?(I only have an IPhone and a tablet)
Does it work enough without Computer?

You can create, store, and use wavemaps with the Tonedexter without a computer. In order to update the firmware, however, you need to download the new version on to a computer, copy it to an SD card, and insert the SD card into the Tonedexter. Firmware updates are important, as they continually improve its functionality.

 

[kento]

Thanks guys! It helped me a lot!

 

[danengland]

Hi

I’m using my Tonedexter on a tour and I’ve found that if I put an external tuner into the effects loop or even before if after the Tonedexter, no sound seems to come out of the pedal (when the tuner is switched off, and not muting the signal) I wondered if you had experienced this or if there was something I was doing wrong?

I’m running a Yamahiko dual sensor pickup into the Tonedexter via a TRS cable.

How would you recommend using an external tuner with the Tonedexter?

Thanks
Dan

 

[James May]

ToneDexter's FX jack is TIP send, RING return. The TIP signal is always alive, even when ToneDexter is in MUTE. I would suggest plugging your tuner into the FX jack but only pushing it in until the first detent, so as to engage the TIP connection but not the RING connection. That way your tuner will always be fed with an active signal.

 

[danengland]

ToneDexter's FX jack is TIP send, RING return. The TIP signal is always alive, even when ToneDexter is in MUTE. I would suggest plugging your tuner into the FX jack but only pushing it in until the first detent, so as to engage the TIP connection but not the RING connection. That way your tuner will always be fed with an active signal.

Ok, thank you - so it needs to be a TRS cable for the FX loop rather than unbalanced cable?

 

[James May]

If you're just plugging in a tuner to the first click, a normal mono cable will be fine. If you want to use the loop as an effects loop, then you'll need a TRS to 2 x mono plug breakout cable.

 

[David Conrad]

Hi all: I'm wondering if there's a setting on the Tonedexter that would allow me to just monitor the mic signal alone before training, for as long as necessary, to adjust mic placement. I'm using this alone on an upright bass, and making adjustments or switching anything on the box while both holding the instrument and adjusting the mic position is physically challenging, to say the least. It would be good to be able to just monitor the mic signal without entering training mode. Is there a setting for that? Thanks!

 

[James May]

There is a way to do that, sort of. You can audition the mic in training mode but only after getting through level setting phase first.

Enter training mode and play for few seconds while ToneDexter performst level setting. You'll see LV on the screen. Once that changes to L, you've entered training mode proper. Tap the right footswitch and you will then hear the mic. You can move it around to get the sound you're looking for. Then tap left footswitch to abort this training session, and start over.

 

[David Conrad]

Thanks! Yes, I figured that. One other question: after training, I check the mic sound against the pickup/wavemap sound. I'm positioning the mic (Rode small-diaphragm condenser in this case) to minimize much of the heavy low end, but when I listen back to the wavemap (character on CH2, all eq neutral), I'm hearing a lot of deep boominess I didn't hear when listening to the mic. Any idea why? I'm aiming to get wavemaps that require as little adjustment as possible on stage.