Do you think note names, or fingerings/patterns?

You want to play "Save Tonight" in any key, I will just think vi, IV, I, V in the relative major key and have a good time, though I really should also think i, VI, III, VII in the relative minor key at some point.
Interesting, I have a couple months ago moved to applying the scale degrees to relative major key only and strictly (vi, IV, I, V) and it really helped me to clearly see the harmonic structure of any song. From now on the vi is vi for me, not i anymore. I found that it was dragging me back and confused before.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dusky Bass
Interesting, I have a couple months ago moved to applying the scale degrees to relative major key only and strictly (vi, IV, I, V) and it really helped me to clearly see the harmonic structure of any song. From now on the vi is vi for me, not i anymore. I found that it was dragging me back and confused before.
That is also interesting! I seem to always think roman numerals in terms of the relative major key and have a massive brain lapse as soon as I start to try to think in the minor key. You and I should get together and take the average of our thought processes. :-D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dusky Bass
That is also interesting! I seem to always think roman numerals in terms of the relative major key and have a massive brain lapse as soon as I start to try to think in the minor key. You and I should get together and take the average of our thought processes. :-D
Having two approaches was really confusing to me before. Once I have abandoned relating it to the minor key, all clicked together. Now six is always aiolian mode, one is always major ionian mode, two is always dorian mode, four is major sounding lydian etc. I can relate a number to a tonality more clearly. I had to rewire my brain to not think of blues as one, four, five but as six, two, three but it paid off! All YMMV, not applying in all cases disclaimer, etc. I am just excited about this little personal revelation recently.
 
Last edited:
Interesting, I have a couple months ago moved to applying the scale degrees to relative major key only and strictly (vi, IV, I, V) and it really helped me to clearly see the harmonic structure of any song. From now on the vi is vi for me, not i anymore.

That is also interesting! I seem to always think roman numerals in terms of the relative major key and have a massive brain lapse as soon as I start to try to think in the minor key.

Once I have abandoned relating it to the minor key, all clicked together.

Each to their own, I guess, but I really don't know how you guys function holding everything in the shadow of the major key. YMMV
 
Each to their own, I guess, but I really don't know how you guys function holding everything in the shadow of the major key. YMMV

In short, it's pretty contextual for me.

I blame the last 20-plus years of pop songs landing primarily in the I, V, vi, IV (choose your own sequence) realm for this, though in my perception, it's not the shadow of the major key, but rather the light of the major key. My head just doesn't like thinking i, VI, III, VI if the song doesn't have a truely minor feel.

Now, if there are harmonic minor elements (dom7 5 under a minor 1, or similar) or very audible queues that the minorness is the true tonal center of the song, then my hand automatically plays everything from the perspective of the minor key as tonal center.

I think I've spent too much time as the house bassist for jam sessions. But it gets me out of the house.
 
though in my perception, it's not the shadow of the major key, but rather the light of the major key.

It happened a long time ago now (probably pushing 40 years), but I felt extraordinary freedom when I really stopped thinking of minor in terms of some variant of major with a shifted centre. Minor really is it's own thing, especially the harmonic complexity afforded by the presence and simultaneous availability of the minor and major 6th and 7th. The main shackle removed is the one that treats the natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales as separate entities and discrete tonalities. Just seeing them as equal parts and partners within a larger diatonic system was a revelation.
 
Wow, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts, everyone - some very helpful bits here!

I think I've identified my major disconnect as not actively "saying" (even to myself) what notes/scale degree/chord I'm playing so that it becomes more about those aspects rather than the fret position; and yes - even first grounding myself in the key! I think this habit has carried over with me for many years since I first started on guitar as an early teen where I learned and became reliant on tablature to learn songs quickly. Even having gone to music school for guitar later, I had a habit of reading the standard music notation and then in my head translating it to tablature and fingerings. I think this is the core of my struggle!

I also think that I should spend more time being able to sing the line/melody so that I'm internalizing it more musically, and less about "where" it's played. I love the idea of separating "what" and "where". You all have been very helpful; thank you!
Practicing the same line/melody (and scales and arpeggios) with multiple fingerings helped me a lot because doing that forces you to break out of established patterns. For a major scale you’re not limited to the usual 24124134 fingering: you can play four notes on one string and four notes on the next highest string (which would be 14241424 or 13341334 depending on where you are and your hand anatomy), you can use an extension or pivot and play 12412412, for many scales you can incorporate open strings, the lowest octave of every scale between E and C can be played without going past the fifth fret, you can play scales entirely on one string (and change up when you shift), etc.
 
Well, when learning a tune in rock/pop/R&B I memorize the notes of the signature riff or lick, and find the most comfortable pattern to play these notes - either what is economical in physical movement, or what sounds best, -- like if it requires sliding into ("greasing”) notes.
When it comes to the song chord progression usually think of chord root name and immediately/automatically transfer that into the Roman numeral method (Key: I ii iii IV V7 vi viiº or i ii III IV v/V7 ♭VI ♭VII [very overly simplified]). When talking to another player will say chord name and quality (ie B minor, G Major, F7, etc) - it’s such fast plain speak that is so efficient. They can figure where/how they wish to play it for themselves. Or may rattle off the chord progression numerals.
It’s good to know fretboard patterns at first. But it’s good to know all of the different patterns. Every chord has at least four patterns you can use. I recommend reading through The Improvisor's Bass Method by Chuck Sher | Sher Music Co. which has a ton of diagrams and exercises; super easy and fun!* Of course down the road you’re going to want to break away from hand pattern thinking and have it become ear pattern hearing. But that’s another subject. For you for now just focus on knowing all of the note names on every string on every part of the neck. Would think the “put this finger here” method would be exhausting and time consuming — but that’s just me.

In jazzy jazz it’s hearing the roots and hearing the chord changes and pretty much knowing chord arpeggios and recognizing the changes, because a lot of progressions are really common = one hears them a lot [very overly simplified], and common ways to get from one chord [tone] to another.

Have fun!! :bassist: :hyper:☮️💚

* a GREAT instruction book in all aspects of playing and thinking about developing bass lines. Light, useable theory explained. Well, I liked it anyway.
 
Last edited:
When I'm reading off of a lead sheet or standard notation it is always notes. Finger positions won't cut it. But too much then becomes finger patterns and intervals when there isn't music in front of me. I would like to get past that. I think that's one reason I suck at improv. I can't seem to shift my brain into notes to understand where I need to go creatively.
 
I think notes first, fingerings second, patterns never. The fingerings exist to support what notes you want to play. I think learning some patterns is good, but only if you’re becoming more familiar with the notes. I don’t think in patterns because it’s limited in its usage. If I think in notes, I don’t get thrown if a note doesn’t fit in my comfy pattern.
 
On new material, I work from chord charts - so that's notes to start with, but as soon as I can, I start looking away. It's muscle memory ultimately, but not just physical patterns. If I learn a song well enough, transposing to another key is a relatively simple task - most times, I can play it on the first attempt in the new key, even if the patterns are different in that key. I do a lot of learning of new songs and play the in different keys all the time; this is something I work on continuously. Anyway, once a song is learned, it isn't really notes or patterns - it's just "in there" somewhere - if I'm thinking about notes or patterns while playing, I haven't really learned the song.
 
If I’m reading, it’s notes. If I’m reading chord charts, it’s understanding chord structure and rythm. If I’m learning by ear, it’s knowing the sounds and where to find roots and harmonies. Once I know a song, it’s subtle modifications, hopefully prior to having to record it. Scratch recordings help you listen objectively and get new ideas. Once I’m happy, it’s time to add vocal parts if desired. Then, if I play a song a lot, I usually find myself eliminating notes. Voila!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: SteveCS