Does "Handcrafted" have any impact on your buying decisions?

[74hc]

CNC rules in electric guitar and bass manufacturing. My preference is skilled craftsmen with CNC machines in the U.S.A.

I would guess that if you try a business operation built on a model of producing electric guitars and basses, you'll lose your shirt trying to win marketshare with old school definition of "handcrafted". You would need to be on the acoustic side, but that will take years of experience beforehand. Most in that category that I know of go and work for a luthier first.

For sure, no doubt about that! I’m referring to the entire process. My wood supplier let’s me spend all day in their warehouse with my scale, sorting through boards. I get to hold and examine each one before I even have to pay for it.

How are you going to price that labor cost into your product and survive in a highly competitive marketplace?

You are approaching this potential business all wrong if you want to make a profit.

 

[jaminjamesp]

Wow dude, you really have no other choice than to pursue this the way you feel about wood! I'd just ask for a fair price. If you build quality and offer things nobody else can, clients will come.

Thanks for the encouragement. Like I’ve said in other posts this isn’t a get rich thing, and I have no desire to use this a building block to grow a large business. That would defeat the whole purpose and not allow me to spend the kind of time I feel like each body deserves. I also would want them to be affordable to working musicians.

As far as price, I’ve been looking at some different numbers. I’m shooting for $300, delivered to your door. There is barely any material cost in a body, so the profit margin in pretty large. It’s really about putting a value on my time. At that price point my “hourly” on each body is about equal to a skilled tradesman. I feel like that’s fair. The price would go up from there for things like color coat over sunburst, metalics, or any customizations outside simple things like pickup routes.

I feel like that’s pretty competitive. It’s really just a bit more than having someone like MJT finish an already purchased body. I’ll add I think MJT does amazing work. I would hope to focus less on heavy though, and put a larger emphasis on the final quality of the finish. I like some relicing: lacquer checking, a touch wear and there. But really I just love creating finishes that are a joy to look at and touch. All my finishing has been done in nitrocellulose lacquer, though I do have some of my techniques that I feel improve upon the shortcomings of lacquer. I’ve started expirementing with acrylic lacquer as well, and polyurethan and polyester clear coats. I’m finding that a super thin polyester clear gives a gorgeous, deep, wet look once it goes on the buffer. It definitely gives lacquer a run for its money, and definitely wins out in the durability department, which is important to a lot of folks.

 

[jaminjamesp]

CNC rules in electric guitar and bass manufacturing. My preference is skilled craftsmen with CNC machines in the U.S.A.

I would guess that if you try a business operation built on a model of producing electric guitars and basses, you'll lose your shirt trying to win marketshare with old school definition of "handcrafted". You would need to be on the acoustic side, but that will take years of experience beforehand. Most in that category that I know of go and work for a luthier first.




How are you going to price that labor cost into your product and survive in a highly competitive marketplace?

You are approaching this potential business all wrong if you want to make a profit.

I’m not building whole guitars. Maybe later. But not now. I want to start with bodies. And a lot of the value in my eyes comes from the quality of finish I apply. As far as building solid electric bodies go, they are not incredibly time intensive. I can give a ton of attention to detail, take my time, and give each one a personality and feel, in just a bit longer than it takes to route one on a CNC. CNC shines in repeatability and no need for direct human contact. They aren’t exactly the fastest though. I’m sure there are huge multimillion dollar machines out there that are, but the machines that smaller luthiers are using aren’t speed demons. It takes around 40 minutes to an hour to a finish a body. Then there is still some finish sanding. Once my blank is glued up, it takes me a bit under 2 hours to start a body and have it ready for finish. Definitely longer than a CNC, but not too shabby.

I’m not in it to get rich, just a small side business, kind of a passion project.

 

[Mugre]

no. Design, execution and price point matter. I don't care how it got there.

Mugre

 

[JW56789]

IF I were to throw a few odd shots in the hat, I'd say . . . . .

1) Possibly one-piece bodies only. In the 'Fender Super Modified' category, I don't see a big demand for exotic topped or whole body exotic woods. However, in the more traditional woods we normally see Fenders made with, one-piece bodies are fairly rare. For me personally I don't think it makes a big difference, but it might be just enough ju-ju, coupled with the 'I can pick my blanks one at a time' method as a selling point.

(The inside joke here: In the Alembic chat forums, we'd get a giggle that with all those laminations, common to Alembic and so many others using that kind of construction, the REAL secret to the tone was all the glue between the many plies!)

2) So many times, the body / neck suppliers like Warmoth and the rest of the usual suspects understandably will post many cautions that his neck pocket 'will fit this *** neck, but not the *** or the *** neck'. You could possibly hang your hat on custom routing the neck pocket. Say a guy just HAS to have a MM neck on a Mustang body, YOU'D be the guy to go see.

But it's a crowded market, and lots of guys are in there ahead of you. Plus in an Amazon and WalMart driven world, a lot of guys only want the cheapest deal out there. It's ruthless, and don't be let down if the care and handcraft is utterly worthless to a big part of the market.

If it were me, I'd shoot for it to be a hobby that pays for itself, and IF it really catches fire, THEN see where you want to go. And remember, you will be your own 'Customer Service Department' dealing with a customer base of often flaky musicians, so I'd begin stockpiling Tylenol, Maalox, and Jack Daniels as your website goes online. I'd prefer Nyquil shooters myself . . . . . .

 

[Dean N]

Some interesting suggestions here!

Custom neck pocket; 1, 2, or 3 piece bodies; unique domestic wood choices (in keeping with a made in USA priority); quality finishes.

Maybe create some visibility here on TB to establish a reputation. TB'ers go through instruments like babies go through diapers. People are always buying stuff here. We'd love to see a small shop take off. Why not go for it?

 

[Ross W. Lovell]

I’ve always been a hobby woodworker, and here recently I've been hand building and finishing bass and guitar bodies, mostly for friends as gifts, a few for myself, and several for a local repair shop. Based on my own objective observations, and the feedback from others, they're a notch above offerings from the big replacement part sellers. The curves and contours feel sexier, the wood is lighter and more consistent, the neck pocket fit is tighter, and the finish is better.

Because I build it all myself and don't outsource anything, I could sell handcrafted bodies with a variety of finishes (vintage, factory new, lacquer, acrylic, poly) for considerably less than a body from Warmoth sent off to a paint shop for finishing (still less than a finished body from Warmoth). I’ve been toying with the idea of purchasing a few more tools, making some modifications to my garage shop, and making it a little side business.

What do you guys think? I realize the neck plays such a huge role in the tone and feel of an instrument. But it often seems like the craftsmanship of bodies is neglected. Besides a select few luthiers out there, I don't think anyone is handcrafting bodies, especially not replacement bodies. Is this because it just doesn't really matter to anyone? Does everyone just see the body as a hunk of wood that the important bits attach to? Is my obsession with a perfect body lost on everyone else? If you could buy handcrafted from a reputable small shop, for less than CNC from a mass producer, would that be interesting to you?

Would love any feedback you all might have for me.

I've several custom instruments. I have no issue with paying for the hand work, though they have to be competitive, not less just somewhere in the ballpark. It's the otherthings, like personal preferences that usually drive me to get something built.

It's hard sometimes to get someone with a lot of talent go build a strat or some other clone with mods. Many time they have their own personal taste, but I'm paying for mine or lack thereof.

I don't have any issue getting a quality body or neck in the market place, I think you'll have some severe competition.

The issue I see is hardware. Much of the stuff is generic and if you get something custom, I'd like to see tomething better than stock. Then again, I usually get a clone built, but I'll guaranty the hardware isn't stock.

The other issue with bodies is the neck pocket. Most companies make necks that fit "their" pockets but need to modified to fit others.

To me, it seems you are leaving too much to chance not offering a neck as your reputation is going to be based on how well they get one to fit.

With regards to replacement bodies........without having the body and/or neck in hand, the specs seem to change wildly between years, and even models, depending on where they were manufactured. I have several of the same models, different production facilities and while they all "look" identical. They mist definitely are NOT! Heck the pickguard screw locations are not the same, never mind other benchmarks.

That being said......GO FOR IT!!!! No one ever was innovative just doing the same thing. Successful is another story, but just a matter of managing your expectations.

GOOD LUCK!!

 

[BassUrges]

How much small business experience do you have?

I ask because making things—guns, basses, leatherwork, aquarium ornaments, jewelry—is my calling. I tried to make it my living (still hoping!), and as a lawyer I’ve also helped lots of other people try to make it their living. The challenge isn’t making things, or making them cheaply—the challenge is marketing.

You may make a fine body, and those who try them may rave. But as an unknown builder it’s a tough sell compared to Warmoth or Allparts. Ideally you want them in stores where people can touch them and make an impulse purchase. And to get there, you need distribution.

Rule of thumb: you must have your product in your warehouse (or basement) at ONE QUARTER the MSRP. That’s counting your time to make it. You offer your distributor 15-20% of the MSRP, and he in turn offers the retailer 40-50%. Otherwise, you count on spending that margin on marketing (which is much more than advertising—trade shows and sales calls and SEO and instagram posts, all of which are massive time sucks).

Alternatively you concentrate on the luthier market, which is a challenge all its own—and be prepared to sell at retailer pricing or less.

Or as a third alternative you sell 6 bodies a year to friends of friends. Which is fine! Just be aware of what we’re talking about here.

 

[Topkat13]

I would weather buy a handcrafted pizza vs. one in a box...so I guess my answer is yes.

 

[Honch]

No the slightest. "Handcrafted" means only so much, and the end result can vary. I've always been wondering if you can pick or choose between a handcrafted instrument FROM CHINA, or a factory made in USA?

 

[buldog5151bass]

As others have suggested, make your business unique. Because you are making bodies one off, custom work is not as much as issue as it would be for the big boys. That could be your ticket to the game.

 

[Funkinthetrunk]

As said, good customer service speaks volume. Quality work speaks even louder.
Enough talk..build something!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I think the best of both worlds is CNC rough cutting and hand finishing. You get the organic feel and rapid removal of the bulk of the wood.

 

[bassliner50]

"hand crafted" is a common euphemism for expensive. I am drawn to and make use of quality mass produced instruments. However, if I were Itzhak Perlman, I would pursue hand crafted instruments and deservedly so.

 

[Ghastly]

I'd be interested to see some of your work.

 

[jaminjamesp]

IF I were to throw a few odd shots in the hat, I'd say . . . . .

1) Possibly one-piece bodies only.

I go back and forth on one piece bodies. Tonally I think there is zero perceptible difference. I'm sure others will argue. But. My main gig is engineering and producing. I've been using my ears evaluating tone for years, and I think I have a pretty sharp ear. I can pretty quickly tell the difference between revisions of the same well known compressors, or hear the tonal difference in boosting a narrow frequency band .5db. I can't hear the difference in 1 or 2 piece bodies. Then there is the much talked about stability issues. Maybe it's real, maybe it's not. I can't find any anecdotal evidence from the source that they've had issues with one piece bodies. All that being said, for bodies with bursts or clear coats, I'm all about one piece bodies for the aesthetics.

Some interesting suggestions here!

Custom neck pocket

I think this could be a big selling point!

It's hard sometimes to get someone with a lot of talent go build a strat or some other clone with mods. Many time they have their own personal taste, but I'm paying for mine or lack thereof.

GOOD LUCK!!

A lot of my motivation behind me picking this hobby up came from this very issue. I found several great luthiers who I tried to give my money to in hopes they'd build me a Precision body. They just weren't interested in taking the time on something that wasn't their design. Which is totally fine and respectable, but it did highlight a hole in the market for high quality hand made bodies that are not original shapes to the builder.

How much small business experience do you have?

You may make a fine body, and those who try them may rave. But as an unknown builder it’s a tough sell compared to Warmoth or Allparts. Ideally you want them in stores where people can touch them and make an impulse purchase. And to get there, you need distribution.

I have some small business experience. I own and run my studio, and I've built a pretty solid career as an engineer/producer. I know it's not the same, but I'm familiar with the concepts of working for ones self and understanding the market to exploit it the most efficient way possible. There are several local guitar shops that do a lot of business for people wanting parts builds but don't know hot to do it themselves. They tell the guys their specs, they order all the parts for them, and then the guys build the guitar. I've talked to two different shops very casually about supplying them with bodies, and have supplied two already to one of them. I don't think it would it would be something where they only sell my bodies, but it would be an option for the buyer.

I think the best of both worlds is CNC rough cutting and hand finishing. You get the organic feel and rapid removal of the bulk of the wood.

I've given this idea some thought. It adds cost to build which I'd have to pass along to the customer, and I want to keep these as affordable as possible. The one idea I've had is having the neck pockets cut by a CNC shop for bodies that aren't custom order. Possibly even having the CNC rough out the shapes for pickups and control cavities. The router could then drill some holes outside the body area that would align with corresponding holes on the body shape templates. That would save some time and also give a certain measure of comfort to the end user knowing there isn't any guess work in the neck pocket.

 

[jaminjamesp]

I'd be interested to see some of your work.

For sure. I don't want to get to far over the line of promoting myself here on the forum without having the appropriate clearances. I think posting pictures might cross that line, or maybe I already have. But as soon as I get things a little more solidified both with the mods and with my business plan, I'll post some pictures for sure.

 

[CryingBass]

I don't do bolt-ons or clone basses, so it's more or less a non starter for me.

But a good friend of mine is currently making the transition to CNC machining for many of his basses. The higher end ones will have a lot
more hand work. Charging less for hand made stuff is the wrong tack IMHO. Make it indisputably nicer, charge more.

Hey pw, why no bolt on's? Just curious. No chance of having a screw lose? Or something else?

 

[jaminjamesp]

One idea that I somehow neglected to share if about finishing.

On bodies that are for sale online (as opposed to custom orders) give the customer the option for clear coat preferences. So color coats would be cured and the body would be photographed and put up for sale. You could choose, normal high gloss lacquer clear coat, polyurethane/polyester, satin or matte clear coat, or no clear coat and just buff up the color coats to a gloss. Included in the cost be light aging of the finish if you so desired. Having the bodies pre-finished in color coats and ready for clear would cut down the long turn around times you experience when ordering from other shops specialzing in guitar finishing.

 

[Passinwind]

Hey pw, why no bolt on's? Just curious. No chance of having a screw lose? Or something else?

Just an aesthetic preference. Same reason I don't own any basses that look like the usual suspects. And in both cases, I actually love how they look and sound in other peoples' hands.