People who have expensive basses (8k $ and up). How significant was the change in sound when you upgraded to that instrument?
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Double Bass Expensive basses
- Thread starter wmannerland
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Ten to twenty percent, but it counts. I also have tinnitus, so collect more opinions.
It is really going to depend more on what you are upgrading from. There is a big range. If you have good but not great carved bass, it could be less. If you have a plywood beater it will be huge.
My bass could go for that much now - I bought it nearly 30 years ago. It is a good, fully carved Romanian flatback. It was a massive step up from the Engelhardt tank I was playing. Like night and day.
An 8k+ carved bass is likely going to be a huge step up from any hybrid as well. I play my hybrid Chadwick regularly, it is a huge difference when I get back on my carved bass.
One thing people truly miss in such discussions is that it may not sound much different at all, but it will likely be a far more direct way to the sound you want with far less physical effort. People pay as much for how a bass plays as for how it sounds.
My bass could go for that much now - I bought it nearly 30 years ago. It is a good, fully carved Romanian flatback. It was a massive step up from the Engelhardt tank I was playing. Like night and day.
An 8k+ carved bass is likely going to be a huge step up from any hybrid as well. I play my hybrid Chadwick regularly, it is a huge difference when I get back on my carved bass.
One thing people truly miss in such discussions is that it may not sound much different at all, but it will likely be a far more direct way to the sound you want with far less physical effort. People pay as much for how a bass plays as for how it sounds.
+1 on this
I don't own an expensive bass
But I play next to one in the section
And when everyone is playing I don't notice the tonal timbre, but I feel the resonant power when things get loud.
But the real reason I am looking to upgrade is every note on each string sings with the slightest touch of the bow
No dead spots, no unevenness between strings
It's very inspiring to play and have the notes jumping out when you want them without any extra pressure
A good setup can get only so far, if the top is not expertly carved
Oh yeah I bugged the owner all the time to play his bass when he first brought it in
I was able to do an A B comparision with my bass in a small sectional setting.
Now I just leave it for my sanity
I upgraded about 9 months back from a good quality old Juzek ply bass to a carved bass made in Budapest in 2018 by Akos Balazs. The difference in sound is very noticeable- it’s richer in timbre and far more even across the range of the instrument. And I agree with Damon, the playing experience is far better in terms of being able to easily get a great sound.
After about 25 years of playing DB two things happened almost at once.
One was that I got a nice 20s German flatback.
The other was that @Ed Fuqua, by example, showed me that I had been relying on the amp for a lot of sound production and that there were a couple of levels of sound which I had simply not been pulling. (The short version of that is, "The power of the NoAmp.")
Bingo. Almost like flipping a switch I was pulling a metric crapload of sound from that bass. My bandmates noticed too!
Since then I can access, or at least nod toward, the NoAmp on whatever bass shows up.
But having that particular instrument at that particular moment was part of moving through that doorway.
FWIW, my current ca. 1850 German flatback was hanging for around $8500 when I got it in 2016. It's not a collector piece but it is an inspiration to play.
One was that I got a nice 20s German flatback.
The other was that @Ed Fuqua, by example, showed me that I had been relying on the amp for a lot of sound production and that there were a couple of levels of sound which I had simply not been pulling. (The short version of that is, "The power of the NoAmp.")
Bingo. Almost like flipping a switch I was pulling a metric crapload of sound from that bass. My bandmates noticed too!
Since then I can access, or at least nod toward, the NoAmp on whatever bass shows up.
But having that particular instrument at that particular moment was part of moving through that doorway.
FWIW, my current ca. 1850 German flatback was hanging for around $8500 when I got it in 2016. It's not a collector piece but it is an inspiration to play.
The bass I use for orchestra qualifies for the "over $8k" category. It is louder and has a deeper timbre than my other (carved) basses, which is why I bought it. However, it's not the bass I choose to play in non-orchestral situations.
I don't think price can reliably predict sound quality, particularly in the under-$10k category. Makers and sellers often factor looks rather heavily into their pricing, so you may pay more for that beautifully-grained top while the plainer-looking instrument next to it may sound as good or better - for less money. There is no good substitute IMO for trying a number of basses in a single session and location before selecting the best one you can afford.
I don't think price can reliably predict sound quality, particularly in the under-$10k category. Makers and sellers often factor looks rather heavily into their pricing, so you may pay more for that beautifully-grained top while the plainer-looking instrument next to it may sound as good or better - for less money. There is no good substitute IMO for trying a number of basses in a single session and location before selecting the best one you can afford.
Metric because the bass is German?
I think there can be a bit of a danger when it comes to expensive basses. I’ve played more than a few instruments in the mid 5 digit realm that were quite unremarkable. That said, there are plenty of amazing expensive basses out there if you know what you want and what to look for. Just be aware that beautiful looking basses don’t always sound beautiful and just because an instrument has a pedigree (maker/former owner etc.) doesn’t guarantee that that it will be killing.
Sam, are you pulling more sound by pulling harder, or was it a matter of learning how to get the most out of the strings through better technique?
The change in an upgrade from laminate to carved, to high end carved is very significant.
Warmer deeper sound, beautiful wood, ‘proper’ dimensions, quality of tuners, bridge/tailpiece/fingerboard all go up as you spend more.
So I started on a pretty nice clean ‘41 Kay laminate.
Took it home on the bus. That was about ‘72.
In 1974 I upgraded to a small 3/4 carved Chinese bass that had been fully restored by a bass luthier.
The sound was significantly warmer and my instructor at the time said it ‘speaks well’.
For just a bit more money I could of bought the large Hawkes ‘military’ bass he was using.
I was very happy with my Chinese bass at the time, and declined on the old English/German Hawkes.
Another of my instructors from the local symphony mentioned my small bass with a Quenoil look ‘is not the kind of bass they want in a symphony’.
That was ok cause the last thing I wanted to do was play in a symphony.
I kept subbing out of the one I was in to play jazz gigs lol.
Fast forward a bit, and 5 years ago bought a 1997 7/8ths copy of an 1750 Venetian bass, made with beautifully flamed wood from Reid Hudson/Vancouver Island. The sound is deeper and more suitable to a symphony setting, but I still keep that old Chinese bass for jazz.
My newer orchestral bass is not as deep or warm as my current instructor’s old Italian Martini bass, but is close.
His bass could be worth ten times mine.
He has said my bass would be fine in his bass section.
So each time I have stepped up to a new instrument it has cost more and is better.
Hmmm, you get what you pay for. Sort of.
Fwiw, I saw Ray Brown a number of times, and he played what ever bass was provided.
Some were …not a bass he, or you, or myself, would ever choose to own.
But RB always sounded like Ray Brown, and always got great applause.
Warmer deeper sound, beautiful wood, ‘proper’ dimensions, quality of tuners, bridge/tailpiece/fingerboard all go up as you spend more.
So I started on a pretty nice clean ‘41 Kay laminate.
Took it home on the bus. That was about ‘72.
In 1974 I upgraded to a small 3/4 carved Chinese bass that had been fully restored by a bass luthier.
The sound was significantly warmer and my instructor at the time said it ‘speaks well’.
For just a bit more money I could of bought the large Hawkes ‘military’ bass he was using.
I was very happy with my Chinese bass at the time, and declined on the old English/German Hawkes.
Another of my instructors from the local symphony mentioned my small bass with a Quenoil look ‘is not the kind of bass they want in a symphony’.
That was ok cause the last thing I wanted to do was play in a symphony.
I kept subbing out of the one I was in to play jazz gigs lol.
Fast forward a bit, and 5 years ago bought a 1997 7/8ths copy of an 1750 Venetian bass, made with beautifully flamed wood from Reid Hudson/Vancouver Island. The sound is deeper and more suitable to a symphony setting, but I still keep that old Chinese bass for jazz.
My newer orchestral bass is not as deep or warm as my current instructor’s old Italian Martini bass, but is close.
His bass could be worth ten times mine.
He has said my bass would be fine in his bass section.
So each time I have stepped up to a new instrument it has cost more and is better.
Hmmm, you get what you pay for. Sort of.
Fwiw, I saw Ray Brown a number of times, and he played what ever bass was provided.
Some were …not a bass he, or you, or myself, would ever choose to own.
But RB always sounded like Ray Brown, and always got great applause.
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I can only speak to my own experience. My Mirecourt 5/8 bass isn’t as loud acoustically as the 3/4 Knilling my wife owns. Both are flat backs.
I started on a Kay that I got for free in pieces and restored myself. The carved bass I play today would just barely qualify for the "expensive" category if inflation is considered. It was a new Romanian carved workshop bass.
The difference was night and day, but... ply and carved basses are expected to sound different in terms of tone. I recently gave the Kay away.
When I was shopping for basses, I noticed that the dealers were reasonably good at pricing basses according to quality, with some interesting exceptions. In my region, there seemed to be a premium on old German basses, and many of the ones on the market were high priced but in terrible condition, e.g., showing signs of being repaired with nails, screws, etc. I decided that for my own enjoyment, there was an "intactness" dimension that is independent of tone quality but important to my own future satisfaction. Getting much better tone, and acceptable condition, would have involved many more dollars.
I also learned that if one has played the same bass for a long time, their technique will adapt to the instrument, and they may have to get past some old habits before really being able to give a new bass a good trial. One dealer offered me some wise advice: "Many Kay players end up with a new bass that sounds just like a Kay." Giving new basses a fair trial involved getting the Kay sound out of my head.
The difference was night and day, but... ply and carved basses are expected to sound different in terms of tone. I recently gave the Kay away.
When I was shopping for basses, I noticed that the dealers were reasonably good at pricing basses according to quality, with some interesting exceptions. In my region, there seemed to be a premium on old German basses, and many of the ones on the market were high priced but in terrible condition, e.g., showing signs of being repaired with nails, screws, etc. I decided that for my own enjoyment, there was an "intactness" dimension that is independent of tone quality but important to my own future satisfaction. Getting much better tone, and acceptable condition, would have involved many more dollars.
I also learned that if one has played the same bass for a long time, their technique will adapt to the instrument, and they may have to get past some old habits before really being able to give a new bass a good trial. One dealer offered me some wise advice: "Many Kay players end up with a new bass that sounds just like a Kay." Giving new basses a fair trial involved getting the Kay sound out of my head.
Ray Brown almost played my bass. It was while I was in grad school, RB was playing there. The music director called me and asked if RB could use my bass. I said: Yes, of course, on the condition that you keep calling around to find a better bass than mine. I was kind of embarrassed about the condition of my Kay. So they did find another bass from the local symphony.
I and the one other bass player in the audience will notice Kungfu's 10-20%; they will be the one person who chats it up with me during the set break.
If I bring my polished ALCOA, 50 people will rabidly mob me at the break, and not one of them will mention "tone".
I could drop $100,000 on a 250 year old fragile brown wooden bass from the land of my ancestors and it will still likely sound like me +10%.
The audience will still spend the entire night watching the attractive woman at the front of the stage who sings and plays a $600 guitar and not give a $#!t about the guy on stage left playing the big "chello"....
If I bring my polished ALCOA, 50 people will rabidly mob me at the break, and not one of them will mention "tone".
I could drop $100,000 on a 250 year old fragile brown wooden bass from the land of my ancestors and it will still likely sound like me +10%.
The audience will still spend the entire night watching the attractive woman at the front of the stage who sings and plays a $600 guitar and not give a $#!t about the guy on stage left playing the big "chello"....
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I think that's the same thing, really.
There's no one-size-fits-all "better technique" on a planet where Christian McBride, Stan Clarke, Eddie Gomez, Scott Colley, John Patitucci and Ben Allison each makes gorgeous music with different technique.
But I am comfortable saying that if you can't work the NoAmp, either your technique is letting you down, your self-image of what your technique allows is incomplete, or your instrument isn't set up to help you make that work. Or some combination of those.
For me, just acknowleging that there was a thing and I wasn't doing it was giant.
Getting an instrument that could fill up a medium-size space in a medum-volume context was another thing. Ultimately that proved less essential but at that moment it was very helpful.