Double Bass Expensive basses

#41
damonsmith said:
The great player sounding great on a lesser instrument posts have no meaning at all. It is short-sighted and has no place in a discussion where a person wants to upgrade to a nicer instrument.
Pretty much any pro can pull what need out of most basses for a couple of sets.
Beside how an instrument plays, the biggest question is: how much work you can get done on it in the practice room?
Ray Brown can sound fine on a lesser bass. He became the Ray Brown we know practicing on a good bass.
Just because the tone is in a bass, does not mean anything when trying an instrument to own and to do your work on it. If you want to get anywhere with the instrument, the bulk of that work will be in the practice room, playing things that are not all that fun. A nice, inspiring bass you don't have to fight for tone and projection is key.

Listening through a set up not optimal for you is a bit harder, but you should factor such things in.

A few weeks ago, Luke Stewart was in town and I lent him my bass for a show. I gave a hard no on lending it for school program as things get damaged at schools.
My student brought over a nice, well set up Kaye to lend for the school gig. It had a nice, strong warm tone. I could get a lot of my sound out of it both arco and pizz. Compared to either of our basses (he plays a higher end fully carved Shen that sounds and plays great) it was exhausting to play.

So, really think of what two or three hours of practice will be like on the instrument you choose. Not just how a couple notes pop out and whether it will be adequate on a gig.
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This is kind of what I was trying to get at but never brought it back around. A nice bass that is finicky and has more wolf tones or some other trade off for its sound can be a real pain in the arse after even just a warm-up and not be worth the money or pedigree. It can be easier to sound way better on a more agreeable bass which makes the whole cost less of a factor in trying to find an upgrade. It's all about finding a /good/ bass.
 
#42
Generally, a lesser bass will limit growth because the player has to work harder. It may be due to setup issues or just the fact that the tone isn’t in the bass. Setup issues can be fixed, which will often improve the tone, but the instrument can only be as good as it can be. A player's concept of tone will be severely limited in the same way a painter’s work would be limited by two shades of brown on the palette.
So, as players progress, they will benefit from an instrument that they can grow into. Great players can sound great on cheap basses but they seldom get there without having a suitable instrument.

A good instrument is one that allows the player to do whatever it is that he or she wants to do, with minimal effort. It has little to do with price.
 
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#44
I owned a 1938 American Standard along side my Italian bass for many years. Both great basses. Occasionally I chose the AS for some gigs as it had that subwoofer quality that thrills a crowd. My Italian carved is very different. Very detailed, very exacting whereas the AS is quite veiled in comparison. For me the biggest payoff is arco (although it really includes pizz as well). There are sounds and colors that after many years are still revealing themselves to me with the Italian. The Italian constantly reminds me that it’s me not her. What I draw out of her is on me because it’s definitely in there. The plywood never really gave me that feeling. The bulk of what we do is in the practice room and that is where the carved really pays dividends over a ply. We can cut just about anything with a Ginsu knife but a high-end sushi knife can make you an artist….if you put in the effort to find everything it (and you) are capable of.
 
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#46
damonsmith said:
This is just not stressed enough. People really fixate on what works for an hour while pumped full of adrenaline! Not years in the practice room.
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Yep. However, a nice plywood might be just the thing for that amplified pizz gig where a simple tone and resistance to feedback is prized. Something more plug and play can be a good thing. Although it’s not a ‘better’ bass, it might be a better tool.
 
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#47
This thread is about expensive basses, not cheapo basses. OP mentioned $8k as a dividing line. I totally get the points about how an instrument affects one's effort and practice time, but is spending five figures really gonna make one a better player over time than spending $4, $5, or $6k??? If a student comes to you with a $6000 fully carved Shen with a good setup and says, "I'm struggling. I think I need a better instrument,"--seriously, you would laugh, right?
 
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#48
Several years ago I was contacted about a bass that had been bought at a school auction for $25 but needed to be sold and was I interested? I went to see it and found it was an older carved German factory bass that had potential but needed a lot a work. I informed a luthier I knew who ended up buying it for I believe $1000. A couple of years later I was at an ISB convention and saw the same bass for sale for $20,000! The luthier was there so I asked what the deal was. Apparently the bass had been completely rebuilt and had taken hundreds of hours of work. I played it a little and it sounded good and played very nicely. Was it worth the asking price? Not based on what I experienced playing it but a conservatory student did end up buying it. Was the price based on the quality of the bass, the time spent repairing it, the story that went with it, or some of each? I really can't say based on my experience with it but I hope it turned out to be worth it for the buyer.
 
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#51
bassically_eli said:
This thread is about expensive basses, not cheapo basses. OP mentioned $8k as a dividing line. I totally get the points about how an instrument affects one's effort and practice time, but is spending five figures really gonna make one a better player over time than spending $4, $5, or $6k??? If a student comes to you with a $6000 fully carved Shen with a good setup and says, "I'm struggling. I think I need a better instrument,"--seriously, you would laugh, right?
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I get you but it really depends on how far the student was in their development and what their goals were. We all know a great 6K basses can play/sound as good as a bad 20k instrument. We are assuming money translates to quality. Also, there’s diminishing returns to consider. But if a student could show me the ceiling they were hitting, I might just take a trip to David Gage or Kolsteins with them and look for that next instrument to get them further down their path.
 
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#52
Greg Clinkingbeard said:
Yep. However, a nice plywood might be just the thing for that amplified pizz gig where a simple tone and resistance to feedback is prized. Something more plug and play can be a good thing. Although it’s not a ‘better’ bass, it might be a better tool.
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I will always disagree with this, but you like to say it. I can feel a huge difference between my hybrid and my carved bass whether the amp is there or not. You are getting caught up in the short-sighted notion about whether the tone will get the job done - and it will. That is only one part of it. It is going to take more effort to play and as you pointed out, it probably isn't going to get you very far as a player overall.
 
#53
damonsmith said:
I will always disagree with this, but you like to say it. I can feel a huge difference between my hybrid and my carved bass whether the amp is there or not. You are getting caught up in the short-sighted notion about whether the tone will get the job done - and it will. That is only one part of it. It is going to take more effort to play and as you pointed out, it probably isn't going to get you very far as a player overall.
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Im always going to say get the best bass you can afford and spend each day trying to get more into it and out of it regardless of what people may do to your sound once it leaves your fingers. For years I was forced to backline basses which I would amplify into varies halls and venues. Usually they were plywood of varying degrees of quality and sound. Without a doubt these basses changed the way I played and limited what was possible on the stand. It wasn’t just in my head, my band mates noticed and said so. After the pandemic. during which I had my Italian converted to a removable-neck, everyone immediately noticed a radical change in the sound and support I could provide and the freedom in which I could play, not to mention the intonation and clarity.
 
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#57
Greg Clinkingbeard said:
Yep. However, a nice plywood might be just the thing for that amplified pizz gig where a simple tone and resistance to feedback is prized. Something more plug and play can be a good thing. Although it’s not a ‘better’ bass, it might be a better tool.
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I'm proof of this. I've had a couple of carved basses that would go for $12-15k+ these days. But playing mostly blues and Americana stuff now all I've got is a small lightweight Czech plywood. It's durable and amplifies loud without having to go to a magnetic pickup.

BUT.... I could not have learned to draw sound out of the instrument like I can without having had decent carved basses. The better your instrument the more complex the sound and deeper into it you can go. No serious student with the means to acquire a carved bass should ever be satisfied with a laminated one.
 
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#58
BlueRock said:
I'm proof of this. I've had a couple of carved basses that would go for $12-15k+ these days. But playing mostly blues and Americana stuff now all I've got is a small lightweight Czech plywood. It's durable and amplifies loud without having to go to a magnetic pickup.

BUT.... I could not have learned to draw sound out of the instrument like I can without having had decent carved basses. The better your instrument the more complex the sound and deeper into it you can go. No serious student with the means to acquire a carved bass should ever be satisfied with a laminated one.
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Totally agree, there are times when a great plywood bass perfectly fits the bill.
 
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#59
7291FC8E-2D33-4F7C-AB6A-DB0BBF1EA756.jpeg
Greg Clinkingbeard said:
https://www.davidgage.com/instrument_guide.php
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I’m a long time friend and customer of David Gage (23 years now, wow!). He’s a great guy and an important figure in my life as a musician. Posting just the link I guess you’re referring to the bit about costs and pedigree etc. However, I think you have to take this with a huge grain of salt. One trip to the shop would be enough to clear this up. There are diminishing returns as we go up in cost, to be sure. 20k used to be the entry point for really good basses and 40k would get you a Prescott. I’m sure that’s changed by now. Going back to the OP 8k isn’t really a useful figure in the first place. But we must keep in mind that value is subjective. I remember buying my Tewksbury at Gage (22k) and Sam (at Gage) imploring me to just buy a 8k juzek that was up for sale by Christian McBride. Ultimately, he was right, that would have been the right move at the time. Back to Gage. When you sell Ferraris day in and day out there is a well-worn tendency to say off-handedly, ‘just buy a Prius and be done with it’ (especially when you’ve just created a Prius knockoff that you’re starting to sell). You’ve been to the mountain, you’ve seen it all, you’re no longer seeking or even interested. In short, and no disrespect, you’ve become a dealer and are no longer a player. That’s how I read Dave’s comment. He certainly knows that the Kousevitsky bass is very special, but not being romantic or sentimental about it, he will also let you play it. Perhaps it’s all nuance at a certain point, and, of course it is. A finer instrument delivers more of those nuances and the more you appreciate and hear those nuances, even the more exaggerated they become for you. A bass that speaks quickly under the bow is like driving a Ferrari for the first time. When you get to the point where you can, for a moment, taste the sound of your heroes, it all makes perfect sense and money becomes more fluid. Charlie didn’t play a Vuillaume for nothing. As great as he was, that bass became part of his sound. Am I arguing, no, not at all. Just exploring the subject with friends. So much depends on an individual’s ears, ambitions and goals. I’ve found my endgame bass unless I come into some money. It’s worth maybe 25k now. I keep finding things in it that I didn’t know existed. It keeps teaching me. If that stops maybe I’ll reconsider.
 
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