Double Bass Expensive basses

[groooooove]

I remember getting an antique bass appraised, by a respected professional luthier.

he never played it, nor did he want to hear it be played.

it was appraised at something like $14k, i forget. it was a lovely little bass with an ideal setup for jazz and solo playing. The value is determined by what it is in this case, not by the sound.

Lots of basses will sell for a much higher price than their sound alone would determine. The reverse is also true. if you play 20 carved shens, the best of those (in my experience) will compete favorably with some expensive basses based on tone alone.

also remember that single-maker instruments tend to be treated at art as much as instruments. they're functional sculptures at the end of the day.

okay, so now that i've said some qualifiers:

if you have experience and a discerning ear, as price increases on average the sound will get noticeable better, louder, more interesting, more complex, whatever you'd like to call it. You can always find an old bass with pedigree that will be expensive and not as nice as a cool old juzek. But if you have $25k to spend on a hand made bass, with a little research and careful shopping, that bass will out perform a juzek-type bass by quite a bit.

basses being so individual, there are always exceptions. I know i spent a lot on my hand made bass and it offers me a lot more than my previously mentioned antique flatback did. but i've also seen several $6-8k shen basses that were clearly tonally superior to some 20K+ bassess.

 

[Don Kasper]

If I bring my polished ALCOA, 50 people will rabidly mob me at the break, and not one of them will mention "tone".

james...
Do some polished ALCOA basses sound less "tinny" than other polished ALCOA basses, and, if so, is "less tinny" a plu$ or a minu$ with regard to perceived/appraised value?
Srsly. Not kidding.
Thanks!

 

[damonsmith]

The audience will still spend the entire night watching the attractive woman at the front of the stage who sings and plays a $600 guitar and not give a $#!t about the guy on stage left playing the big "chello"....

It takes singing arco on a nice old bass to get them to shoulder box the guy talking about tone or to push past the ALCOA mob to chat you up. They might still call it 'chello but you might also get to have an expresso with them later.

 

[james condino]

you might also get to have an expresso with them later.

I'm 100% caffeine free; usually the offer is more than "espresso"...

Don: I live in a town where everyone is a legendary kick @$$ player and all of the gigs are amplified, so it gets to the point of performance art. If I was in a quiet listening room, I'd almost never pick the ALCOA for tone; I'd pick one of my big old carved chocolatey bottom end basses. BUT: there are a lot of circumstances where the brighter midrange of the ALCOA cuts through fantastic and owns the room and my fancy basses get completely lost in the muddiness.

I can build and or buy and or restore almost any bass I want, yet I love the ALCOA for my amplified stage personality- all shined up and wearing my jet black Johnny Cash suit, boots w/ chrome spurs, & ready to rumble!

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I remember getting an antique bass appraised, by a respected professional luthier.

he never played it, nor did he want to hear it be played.

it was appraised at something like $14k, i forget. it was a lovely little bass with an ideal setup for jazz and solo playing. The value is determined by what it is in this case, not by the sound.

Lots of basses will sell for a much higher price than their sound alone would determine. The reverse is also true. if you play 20 carved shens, the best of those (in my experience) will compete favorably with some expensive basses based on tone alone.

also remember that single-maker instruments tend to be treated at art as much as instruments. they're functional sculptures at the end of the day.

okay, so now that i've said some qualifiers:

if you have experience and a discerning ear, as price increases on average the sound will get noticeable better, louder, more interesting, more complex, whatever you'd like to call it. You can always find an old bass with pedigree that will be expensive and not as nice as a cool old juzek. But if you have $25k to spend on a hand made bass, with a little research and careful shopping, that bass will out perform a juzek-type bass by quite a bit.

basses being so individual, there are always exceptions. I know i spent a lot on my hand made bass and it offers me a lot more than my previously mentioned antique flatback did. but i've also seen several $6-8k shen basses that were clearly tonally superior to some 20K+ bassess.

I couldn’t agree more. The 3/4 willow, either flatback or carved back is a great bass. The SB88 strung with Spirocore Mitts has players shaking their heads saying things like, ‘how can it sound this good?’.
That said, a nice carved bass can do things no ply or mass produced Chinese bass can begin to which will be heard under the bow, mainly.
Also, my 80 year old Rodier which has a new laminate back on very deep ribs has a low end that is ridiculous. It’s overall tone is very loud and weighty. Sadly, it weighs over 30# too which probably has something to do with it.
There are sleepers out there and I’ve played and repaired very expensive basses which didn’t impress me at all.
A customer came in last year and told me he played Charlie Haden’s Vuillaume bass at Robertson’s several years ago. Despite the $200,000 price tag he told me it didn’t impress him, and he didn’t sound like Charlie on it. He said it was just a nice bass.

 

[chris08]

... the difference was enormous!

I played a chinese plywood bass for quite some time and started to realize, that the work i put in wasn't returned soundwise (limited dynamics, nuance, depth, whatever you want to call it). So I started looking around (and was willing to pay about 10k). I tested more than 20 Basses in about a year and not one of the "clicked". I was quite dissapointed. And then I played a very old (late 19th century) german bass, curved back, lots of cracks (but all repaired well), that didn't look the way I had imagined my new bass to be at all (violin shape with quite broad shoulders, very long body)... but the sound.

For the first time the sound of the instrument corresponded with the sound in my head. It costed more, than I was willing to spend and I really had to meditate the whole situation. I had to have it, and found a way to finance it.

After the bass was with me, I was really able to improve my technique and my playing, because I clearly heard every detail. The sound of the instrument is the sound, I imagine, when I think of bass. And the feedback the bass gives, lets me know, if I have put in the right amount of work...

Conclusion: not every expensive bass is automatically georgeous, you have to find the right one. Be patient, and if you have found it, you will know.

 

[statsc]

I had exactly the same experience at Robertson’s several years ago. It’s the provenance…

 

[fdeck]

Francis, check your mentions. Some guy on Facebook was asking questions about your preamp last week. Make that money, dude.

Better than checking my unmentionables.

 

[lurk]

Aren't there 2 fairly identical instruments by the same maker in the classifieds, one previously owned by a famous jazz bassist with the asking price of 18,000 and one with a less prestigious resume going for roughly half that?

 

[james condino]

I say it all of the time, but it is worth repeating:

Try as many basses as possible. Patience will reward you with far more bass than you expected for far less money.

The right bass finds you.

And most important: Who says you can only have one??????

 

[bassmanbrent]

Aren't there 2 fairly identical instruments by the same maker in the classifieds, one previously owned by a famous jazz bassist with the asking price of 18,000 and one with a less prestigious resume going for roughly half that?

Provenance is worth a lot to some folks, I guess. It's not my thing, but who am I to judge?

 

[LaFaro01]

Conclusion: ...not every expensive bass is automatically georgeous, you have to find the right one. Be patient, and if you have found it, you will know.

in my experience it is just the other way around.. if you stay "open" and patient, the right bass will find you.. I just checked very different kind of basses... cheaper ones and more expensive ones... there were a lot of really nice basses...but it didn't make this kind of "boooom", if you know, what I mean... but when I checked out completely unprepared and very spontaneous my "Primus de Quatuor"... I felt this "booom"...it could be very hard not to look at the price tag before, but in this case everything went "fine".... one the other hand... I still use and enjoy my second bass a lot, but this one wasn't really "cheap" either

 

[PaulCannon]

When I was a teen, I upgraded from a very cheap plywood bass to a professional orchestra-quality, vintage, hand carved instrument. That was an enormous upgrade. I still have that bass and play it often. It's a bit more fussy to play than the two modern instruments I have, but its tone is in a class of its own.

Other posters are right that high-end pricing get real weird real fast, especially with vintage and antique instruments. It has very little to do with tone and playability. It has everything to do with provenance, build quality, and condition.

I've tried many, many museum-quality basses in the six-figure range. From a player's perspective, some of them were deeply disappointing considering the names and prices. But I can also say that the very best sounding and playing instruments were also in that price range.

The comments about amplifiers are also interesting. Since most classical / orchestra players generally don't use amplifiers, they're going to be much more attracted to instruments with strong projection in acoustic settings. There are some cheaper instruments out there with a nice sound and nice set-up, but they don't necessarily have the body or projection that a master-built, hand carved instrument should have.

 

[groooooove]

I couldn’t agree more. The 3/4 willow, either flatback or carved back is a great bass. The SB88 strung with Spirocore Mitts has players shaking their heads saying things like, ‘how can it sound this good?’.
That said, a nice carved bass can do things no ply or mass produced Chinese bass can begin to which will be heard under the bow, mainly.
Also, my 80 year old Rodier which has a new laminate back on very deep ribs has a low end that is ridiculous. It’s overall tone is very loud and weighty. Sadly, it weighs over 30# too which probably has something to do with it.
There are sleepers out there and I’ve played and repaired very expensive basses which didn’t impress me at all.
A customer came in last year and told me he played Charlie Haden’s Vuillaume bass at Robertson’s several years ago. Despite the $200,000 price tag he told me it didn’t impress him, and he didn’t sound like Charlie on it. He said it was just a nice bass.

bozo paradzik posted something on his instagram around last week. I don't remember the context, if he was talking about the bass or repertoire or what.

but i remember thinking the instrument had a really pleasant sound. only to find out in the comments, it's a laminate bass. I even asked (knowing his affinity for very high-end gut strings) if the instrument had fancy strings, to which he said "no, 20 year old spirocores."

obviously he is one of the elite masters of our time and one of his strengths is tone production. but man, i doubt that bass he was using would ever be valued over $2k and it really sounded nice.

My shen SB80 has a really, really nice sound. it is not very loud, but for a well- under $2,000 bass... you cannot beat it. for jazz, with a pickup? forget it, it's an actual nice bass.

and back the the op's point... yeah, my hand made carved bass sounds multiple times louder, infinitely richer, more even, more beautiful top to bottom. but, the right well set up laminate with your strings of choice is going to be a "nice instrument."

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

The Shen SB88 has a large lateral brace across the back and something similar on top which runs from the F hole to the center. I suspect these contribute to the rather dark tone. With new Spirocores they sound even and beefy with little of the nasal character of most plys. No more bumps or posts sticking through the plates either. Anyone looking for that woody resonance and character of a great carved bass will be disappointed. Generally, more money delivers more bass.

 

[statsc]

Aren't there 2 fairly identical instruments by the same maker in the classifieds, one previously owned by a famous jazz bassist with the asking price of 18,000 and one with a less prestigious resume going for roughly half that?

Again; provenance!

 

[GretschWretch]

chocolatey bottom end basses

Sounds like a brand name to me.

 

[Jefenator]

They Kay I bought for $2400 at Hammond Ashley beat out a whole room full of much more expensive basses, except one old Yugoslavian going for $6K. Or at least it seemed to, to me at the time!
That may have been as much to do with the strings & setup as anything. It's amazing what a fresher set of Spirocores and good jazz action can do for my perception.
It was definitely a worthy specimen, though - and a great investment. Literally thousands of gigs playing easily with great sound, and not one shop visit in almost 25 years.
Still, next time I'm trying out a room full of nicer basses, I will at least factor in the orchestral setups.

 

[slappahdabass]

There are a few shops off the top of my head - none of which I am willing to name - that will happily apply their own opinion of provenance to inflate prices. I've found that generally with some time to get accustomed, the higher the price the more complex the bass.

Some things to note in my opinion:
- resonance typically comes with wolf tones and other artifacts that make a complex bass difficult.
- most basses can be made to sound amazing but you really have to dig in to them. New string types should come with a sound post adjustment.
- it's all about what makes you play better and happier. Nothing else matters.

 

[damonsmith]

The great player sounding great on a lesser instrument posts have no meaning at all. It is short-sighted and has no place in a discussion where a person wants to upgrade to a nicer instrument.
Pretty much any pro can pull what need out of most basses for a couple of sets.
Beside how an instrument plays, the biggest question is: how much work you can get done on it in the practice room?
Ray Brown can sound fine on a lesser bass. He became the Ray Brown we know practicing on a good bass.
Just because the tone is in a bass, does not mean anything when trying an instrument to own and to do your work on it. If you want to get anywhere with the instrument, the bulk of that work will be in the practice room, playing things that are not all that fun. A nice, inspiring bass you don't have to fight for tone and projection is key.

Listening through a set up not optimal for you is a bit harder, but you should factor such things in.

A few weeks ago, Luke Stewart was in town and I lent him my bass for a show. I gave a hard no on lending it for school program as things get damaged at schools.
My student brought over a nice, well set up Kaye to lend for the school gig. It had a nice, strong warm tone. I could get a lot of my sound out of it both arco and pizz. Compared to either of our basses (he plays a higher end fully carved Shen that sounds and plays great) it was exhausting to play.

So, really think of what two or three hours of practice will be like on the instrument you choose. Not just how a couple notes pop out and whether it will be adequate on a gig.