fEARful 12/6 questions

#41
bassfacer22 said:
In a few days I plan on making a video of the fearless f112 shoutout vs an Epifani 4x10 D.I.S.T.

That will be fun.
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should be interesting indeed. even though people would squint there eyes probably try to debunk it but there is free DB meters and Spectrum Analyzers for download for smartphones. since both cabinets would be measured with the same device I'd say it would be a fair comparison and taking screenshots of the phone would be a breeze for posting. likewise they have sound generators and sweep generators for smartphones be easy to leave bass amp volume and eq exactly same and run a sweep on both cabbies.

likewise it's been well covered super woofer or not a single 12 isn't going to touch a 410.

it's a 96 db 12" speaker
a 410 is 98 to 100dB

so yes all statements from many suggesting a 2x12 is more accurate

likewise your 2x12 isn't covering what you need now so why spend 1200 dollars or more on another 2x12 idk???

super woofer can handle more power but that's exactly what you need more power
so depending on your current amplifier you could need more power with the super woofers

another matching 2x12 of what you have is also a option. this would double your speaker area and raise the sensitivity by 3db

would require less power not more by increasing sensitivity. and yes there is a certain magic to using 4 or more drivers the overall presence is increased
on paper a 410 or 810 might only be 100db but it's overall presence won't be touched by a 2x12 and owned and built super woofer 2x15
the still don't pack the punch of using 4 or 8 speakers regardless of what it is on paper. there is a certain magic to using multiple speakers and highly recommend it.
 
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#42
I might be able to record some video late tomorrow of the shootout 4x10 vs a 1x12.. but yeah it is pretty pointless but will be fun to hear the tone difference..

what are these "super woofers"? picture/website?

and how much power are you talking about? How much fricken power do we need today? I know 200-300 watts is a joke..

but 800watts? 1000+??
 
#43
bassfacer22 said:
I might be able to record some video late tomorrow of the shootout 4x10 vs a 1x12.. but yeah it is pretty pointless but will be fun to hear the tone difference..

what are these "super woofers"? picture/website?

and how much power are you talking about? How much fricken power do we need today? I know 200-300 watts is a joke..

but 800watts? 1000+??
Click to expand...

I have a 3000 watt amp.
 
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#44
I got one that'll do 6 kw into 4 ohms... I think we can get through the demo pretty damn quick.

I think the cab has an excursion limit of about 500 watts - so an amp that can do that without being pushed into misbehavior is all you need [can really use] - something rated at 800 to about 1kw at 8 ohms ought do just fine.

====

"likewise it's been well covered super woofer or not a single 12 isn't going to touch a 410.

it's a 96 db 12" speaker
a 410 is 98 to 100dB"
Click to expand...

But... that efficiency is across a frequency range that goes above 15k Hz in the spec's for some 4x10 models - and the 12 in a GB cab aint doing any work over +/- 800 Hz - the signal above 800-ish is covered by the 6 [plus tweet if you got one] - so you need to look to each component for rational expression of sensitivity. For the fEarful 12/6+1 the loud 6" choice is the 6nd410 = 102 dB 1W/1m and the tweet, the ASD1001, is 104.4dB 1W/1m.

If you want to bring the woof into the comparison you have to figure the 4x10's efficiency over a much narrower and lower bandwidth taking into account port output [if the cab is vented] = ask yourself what the efficiency of the 4x10 in question is below 100 Hz and what is the excursion limit [not the thermal limit]. Walk yourself through all that and you'll see why a super woof 1x12 cab can compare quite well to your average 4x10 bass rig - perhaps even exceeding it in some ways useful to a bass player.
 
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#45
Yeah! What he said.

I've never felt like my 12/6 was not cutting it. It's light and compact. It was cheap and fun to build.

It's not like I'd go out and buy a 410 just because it was louder. Louder isn't always better. Most times, louder just means more suck.
 
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#46
singlemalt said:
It's not like I'd go out and buy a 410 just because it was louder. Louder isn't always better. Most times, louder just means more suck.
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What? Haha

I'm not sure what instrument you play, but louder is what "amplified" loudspeakers are about.. ? Especially for bass. (And I'm pretty sure you play bass)

Clarity and volume is better.

I'm sure the 12/6 is perfect for many many situations.. That's not the point. I'm just mentioning about in general, achieving more volume with clarity is always better.

But anyway, I like your picture, it makes me thirsty.. And more liquid is better..
 
#49
(Super) low woofers are way less efficient than average low/mid drivers.
With (super) low woofers it's possible to design very small cabs which have similar F3 like average sized cabs loaded with typical low/mid drivers.
It's also possible to design "average" sized cabs with super low woofers that provide extended more of low end.
What remains steady is the less efficience of super woofers versus average low/mid drivers.
Super woofers demand for considerable more of power to get same loudness level like average low/mid drivers.
It makes no difference if the woofers run full range or if low passed around 800Hz.
The frequency content above 800Hz is rather small on it's discrete amplitude levels within the spectrum, or explained in different words power density above 800Hz is very small with bass guitar and also with audio program material in general.
Beyond 800 Hz it's easy way to EQ some lack of level cause there is only less power density present while at lows and low-mids there is way more power necessary to compensate lack of SPL just the same way

As most amount of power is needed for lows and low-mids the driver/cab efficience at this frequency band is very essential for power demands of the amplifier.

Super woofers may provide some more of low-end depending on cab design. This "little" more of low end contributes to the average SPL but the little plus of around 1/3 octave for example can't by no means compenaste a -3dB lack in average sensitivety at very essential power hungry frequency range of lows and low-mids of around 3..4 octaves bandwidth.

The average efficience of the 3012LF at essential lows/low-mids calculates to around 94dB while average/typical low/mid drivers provide around 98dB in this field.
4dB of difference in average efficience is quite a lot that can't be "compensated" by having a couple of Hz lower F3.
 
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#50
bassfacer22 said:
I might be able to record some video late tomorrow of the shootout 4x10 vs a 1x12.. but yeah it is pretty pointless but will be fun to hear the tone difference..

what are these "super woofers"? picture/website?

and how much power are you talking about? How much fricken power do we need today? I know 200-300 watts is a joke..

but 800watts? 1000+??
Click to expand...

the so called super woofer used in the fearful builds are made by Eminence they are cast frame neo magnet speakers

Kappalite 3012LF
Kappalite 3015LF

typical full range drivers that reach up to 3 to 5k frequency response can travel 4 to 5mm before reaching non linear distortion or 10% distortion which is real world 180 to 230 watts of power handling

super woofers can travel anywhere from 7mm to 14mm before 10% distortion. and the kappalite series can travel 9mm which is rated as xmax in the speaker specs

so real world power handling is around 450 to 600 watts.

the drawback is to travel such a long gap the sensitivity of the speaker drops and the high frequency response also drops down to 2k instead of 3 to 4k
so they won't work for full range usually a smaller 3 to 6.5 inch driver is used in conjunction for high frequency and upper mids

single speaker being a 8ohm load
and needing 300 to 450 clean watts
you want a ppretty decent amplifier.
many do ok with 500 watt class d
but that's only 280 watts at 8ohms
and 200 of it is clean watts.

I'd shoot for a 600 to 800 watt amp to give yourself clean overhead at 8ohms
 
#51
ThisBass said:
(Super) low woofers are way less efficient than average low/mid drivers.
With (super) low woofers it's possible to design very small cabs which have similar F3 like average sized cabs loaded with typical low/mid drivers.
It's also possible to design "average" sized cabs with super low woofers that provide extended more of low end.
What remains steady is the less efficience of super woofers versus average low/mid drivers.
Super woofers demand for considerable more of power to get same loudness level like average low/mid drivers.
It makes no difference if the woofers run full range or if low passed around 800Hz.
The frequency content above 800Hz is rather small on it's discrete amplitude levels within the spectrum, or explained in different words power density above 800Hz is very small with bass guitar and also with audio program material in general.
Beyond 800 Hz it's easy way to EQ some lack of level cause there is only less power density present while at lows and low-mids there is way more power necessary to compensate lack of SPL just the same way

As most amount of power is needed for lows and low-mids the driver/cab efficience at this frequency band is very essential for power demands of the amplifier.

Super woofers may provide some more of low-end depending on cab design. This "little" more of low end contributes to the average SPL but the little plus of around 1/3 octave for example can't by no means compenaste a -3dB lack in average sensitivety at very essential power hungry frequency range of lows and low-mids of around 3..4 octaves bandwidth.

The average efficience of the 3012LF at essential lows/low-mids calculates to around 94dB while average/typical low/mid drivers provide around 98dB in this field.
4dB of difference in average efficience is quite a lot that can't be "compensated" by having a couple of Hz lower F3.
Click to expand...

exactly lol
and my 130 watt V4 sounds better than any class d amp. no clipping lights no switch mode no thermal shut down. no revision c lol and no standing on stage looking stupid with a amp shutting down.

V4 into 810 done.

I'm 43 and yeah I can move it
 
#52
Foz said:
I think the cab has an excursion limit of about 500 watts - so an amp that can do that without being pushed into misbehavior is all you need [can really use] - something rated at 800 to about 1kw at 8 ohms ought do just fine.
Click to expand...
True if the amplifier is feed with a steady sine wave.
A bass guitar can't squeeze all of the amp power into a narrow bandwith so considerations are different.
Of course it depends on cab design how "robust" the nechanical handling calculates versus thermal handling.
If mechanical handling is down at 250 watt at 70Hz while thermal handling of drivers is 500 watt would mean that the weakest link is of no concerne with bass guitar.
The Kappalite LF-series drivers show a good robustness in this regard, although I don't know exact net volume and tuning of the fearful cabs yet I think it's valid to claim a total power handling that equals the thermal power handling specification of the drivers with fearful cabs!

If there is no HPF that protect drivers from transient noise then there is no possibility to predict a mechanical handling with ported cabs anyway.
There are way to many paramters that contribute to the emerge of transient noise thus Gauss distribution of noise below cab tuning is unpredictable
If there is no HPF, the lower the tuning of the cab the better the robustness versus transient noise. That's actually a benefit with fearful cabs (and similar design goals) versus mainstream "average" cabs if there is NO HPF cause tuning of average cabs loaded with low/mid drivers tends to be somewhat higher (for tonal reasons).

Either way, generally speaking, the more potent the amplifier the more there is need to protect drivers with a HPF from sub transient noise.
 
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#55
buldog5151bass said:
I am thinking a building a 12/6...
- how loud are these?... ...The site says it can replace most 4x10s...Thoughts?
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I love a 15/6/1 with a lot of power for any style I play (Reggae, Jazz, Gospel, Psycho-Billy, Gogo, Neo-Soul). At times I add a second reverse baffle cabinet or a 15sub if I think I need it.

Calling @Chef — A 12/6 is great for a lot of gigs, but some will tell you that you really need two, an added 12sub/15sub, or just a 1212/6. Go forth!
 
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#56
dazmond said:
If you went with a 15/6 and and amp that had 500+ watts at 8 ohms you would be golden. I haven't had to have my 12/6 loud enough to know exactly how loud it can go.
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And this, "amp that has 500+ watts at 8 ohms" is the problem. There are plenty of 800-900 watt @ 4 ohm amps that just don't cut it with a 15/6/1, IME. They clip. M9, mb800, shuttle 6.0—all great but not enough to really cleanly drive a 15/6/1, IME.
 
#57
One reason it is difficult to do A/B comparisons of Greenboy designs to other common cabs is that the largest Greenboy designs use just two woofers. You will never see a 4x form factor Greenboy cab unless they are all aligned vertical. Makes for a real tower of power. Side x side drivers comb filter on the horizontal plane, and that is against Greenboys design principles. Making a 4xx or 8xx with side x side drivers would be feasable only if the woofers were .5 aligned, something Barefaced is doing.

So given all that, you have Greenboy 212's or 215's competing against other brands 410's and 810's. Hardly fair, but the Greenboy dual woofer cabs (or a stack of two single woofer cabs) compare pretty darn close on sensitivity to those big guys cabs. The fridge is 100 dB efficient @ 4 ohms, which is only a dB or so higher than dual woofers of Greenboy 4 ohm goodness.
 
#58
Coolhandjjl said:
...Greenboy dual woofer cabs (or a stack of two single woofer cabs) compare pretty darn close on sensitivity to those big guys cabs. The fridge is 100 dB efficient @ 4 ohms, which is only a dB or so higher than dual woofers of Greenboy goodness, also running at 4 ohms.
Click to expand...

Blasphemer...;) :roflmao: :cool:
 
#60
Jim Carr said:
And this, "amp that has 500+ watts at 8 ohms" is the problem. There are plenty of 800-900 watt @ 4 ohm amps that just don't cut it with a 15/6/1, IME. They clip. M9, mb800, shuttle 6.0—all great but not enough to really cleanly drive a 15/6/1, IME.
Click to expand...


Right so look, once we get done "discussing" about the decibels of whatever woofer.. can we come to an agreement on which amp does have enough "clean" watts to drive something since 'apparently' a Shuttle, M9, and mb800 Don't.. ha.

We all need to buy QSC, Crowns, or Crest power amps now?
 
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