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Double Bass ii V i lines
- Thread starter Lionel Albert
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It’s driving me slightly crazy - and I know I am out of my depth - but shouldn’t that chord be spelled: C E G# Bb D#?
I would call it C7#9, but maybe I’m just a rock ‘n roll stonecutter…
Sure it should but I was underlining the fourths, it's my theory when 7+9 chords became more fashionable than 7b9 with the heritage of modal and quartal.
Just my thought, I wanted to share it.
Yes, the altered chord can be seen as built from 4ths off of the 7th scale degree of melodic minor. However, that is NOT how it functions. It does not function as some ethereal modal chord with no reason to its extensions. It is still a dominant chord with extensions that resolve.
The V7+9 is NOT the same as V7alt. I'm not sure why you do not understand that. Maybe a Youtuber led you astray at some point. It would be good to learn from somewhere other than Youtube. If you have reasoning behind it, you have not conveyed it at all.
Lionel, you have a very minimal, baseline level understanding of these concepts (and harmony in general) and you are speaking way out of your depth. I think we'd all appreciate it if you would take your time in learning this stuff before making these claims and being so stubborn. There is a lot of information from others in this thread (and other threads) that you can learn from.
The V7+9 is NOT the same as V7alt. I'm not sure why you do not understand that. Maybe a Youtuber led you astray at some point. It would be good to learn from somewhere other than Youtube. If you have reasoning behind it, you have not conveyed it at all.
Lionel, you have a very minimal, baseline level understanding of these concepts (and harmony in general) and you are speaking way out of your depth. I think we'd all appreciate it if you would take your time in learning this stuff before making these claims and being so stubborn. There is a lot of information from others in this thread (and other threads) that you can learn from.
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A C7+9 is not an augmented chord in my world. It has a major third and a perfect fifth, a flatted seventh, and a sharped ninth - just like the spelling says.
I'm sure you can play the notes of an augmented chord over a C7+9 and it probably sounds good in many contexts, but that doesn't mean it's an aug chord.
I would write the chord being discussed as C+7#9, C E G# Bb D#. Actually if I have enough space I'd write C aug 7 #9 which is completely clear.
The way I’d expect to see it written would be C7#9b13. Then we know that b9 and #11 are also present by the context- altered scale is implied.
If I see C7#9, I’ll make a contextual judgement if I want to a use diminished (half/whole) sound or the altered sound. Both are possible as the 13 is not specified.
Let's keep clear the distinction between a chord and the note collections that can sound good over it.
Also, we should keep in mind this is a discussion in the context of playing BASS. Far be it from me to suggest no one should ever play the exotic extensions or high-tension note choices, but after all, there are pianos, guitars, and horns to do that. That's why I suggested OP develop the ability to play good solid rich sounding rhythmic lines in two and four to cover major blues, minor blues, Rhythm Changes, and a couple other things, before getting his knickers in a twist over the ideal spelling of a 13th chord.
Ok, but I’d say that it’s good to know where the chord came from, and what the melodic potential is.
And we should be able to hear that and react musically to it. So understanding what it is, playing with it in isolation with the long term goal of spontaneously using it or hearing and reacting to it. Whether or not I spontaneously match my line to a chord or solo should be a choice.
Sound advice. For sure triads for the win. Walk before you can run (pun intended). And time and feel trump note choice every time. However I don’t think the OP asked for advice about repertoire or playing. It seemed he wanted to give a lesson (his words, not mine) and open a discussion about dealing with E7#9 as he referred to it.
I saw quite a lot of misinformation in the thread and I just tried to clear up some open points. I was thinking of the poor souls reading through this thread getting more confused, rather than the OP. He seems to have his viewpoint pretty much set. I never saw such a critical significance with the need to organize everything into 4ths, but cool, I like McCoy Tyner as much as the next guy. [humor]
I sincerely hope it helped clear things up, rather than muddy the waters further.
To sum up:
C7#9 literally means
C E G Bb D#/Eb
(half/whole diminished scale for those who care)
but depending on context you could infer an altered sound:
C7#9b13
C E Bb D#/Eb Ab
(altered scale, aka super locrian aka 7th mode of melodic minor scale, aka major scale with a minor 3rd instead of a major 3rd)
——
Side Note:
The 3rd of a C7#9 chord is definitely an E not Fb (F-flat) as the OP sometimes wrote. The interval down from the Bb to this F-flat is not a fourth, it’s a tritone, your argument about 4ths falls over here, so let’s leave the poor major third alone, ok?
——
Tl;dr
Playing bass lines to these chords: can you use these chord tones, extensions and associated scales? Yes. Do you have to? No!
Hence my original suggestion of transcribing some of the masters of walking bass to see how they deal with these situations and using and developing some of their ideas for your own playing. That’s how to get a deep understanding of this that is personal to you.
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FWIW pro player and teacher graduate of the Jazz Performance degree course at one of the more well known music colleges.
Thank you very much. This basically confirms what I initially thought was in fact correct only to be confused by the O.P's persistence in stating the C7#9 chord had a Fb instead of an E. That makes very little sense to write it like that in my eyes even if enharmonically they sound the same. Why go out of your way to write it as Fb?
There's absolutely no reason except that he's seen a Youtube somewhere that someone with a defective understanding of music theory has created a theory that dominant 7th chords are somehow some weird kind of variants of fourth chords (they aren't). Then, with the tenacity we've seen from this particular person before, he's grabbed onto that and decided to teach his grandmother how to suck eggs.
No, just regular guitar voicings.
@turf3 You talk too much and don't enough understand.
I'm sorry for saying it.
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...Not too sure where to come from with everything that has been said...
I suppose it's when he was referring to the super locrian scale and it's chord structure that it drifted...
If we purely think theory and nothing else of B super locrian (or even locrian b4...) would yield 1:B 2:C 3: D 4:Eb 5:F 6:G 7:A. Therefor the Eb is the fourth note of the scale and act has the same sound of a major 3rd but it is in fact a diminished fourth.
I am not sure where to go from there, the problem lays in the chord/scale relationship and how to interpret these things. It would be like talking about every mode that can be obtained with a certains scale and trying to apply theory to it in an absolute manner.
Let's try an example here and see how everyone understand it.
Second mode of the harmonic minor scale (same up and down): B C D E F# G# A.
What is this? Phrygian #6 or Dorian b2.
What would be the chord related to it? Bm7b9add6 or Bsus7(b9,13)
Actually you could probably come with some frankenstein scale/chord/name.
It would be like saying that since the third is actually the fourth note in a dim HW scale, it is therefor a diminished fourth and not a third.
Is he right I guess, are the other wrong of course not.
@Lionel Albert Am I right in your interpretation?
To everyone else, I am not asking you to agree with what I said but does that make a bit more sense with this in mind?
I suppose it's when he was referring to the super locrian scale and it's chord structure that it drifted...
If we purely think theory and nothing else of B super locrian (or even locrian b4...) would yield 1:B 2:C 3: D 4:Eb 5:F 6:G 7:A. Therefor the Eb is the fourth note of the scale and act has the same sound of a major 3rd but it is in fact a diminished fourth.
I am not sure where to go from there, the problem lays in the chord/scale relationship and how to interpret these things. It would be like talking about every mode that can be obtained with a certains scale and trying to apply theory to it in an absolute manner.
Let's try an example here and see how everyone understand it.
Second mode of the harmonic minor scale (same up and down): B C D E F# G# A.
What is this? Phrygian #6 or Dorian b2.
What would be the chord related to it? Bm7b9add6 or Bsus7(b9,13)
Actually you could probably come with some frankenstein scale/chord/name.
It would be like saying that since the third is actually the fourth note in a dim HW scale, it is therefor a diminished fourth and not a third.
Is he right I guess, are the other wrong of course not.
@Lionel Albert Am I right in your interpretation?
To everyone else, I am not asking you to agree with what I said but does that make a bit more sense with this in mind?
Are you referring to me, if so that is too bad I was really trying to understand where you where coming from...
Melodic minor mode, that's the first thing to know.
Everything is explained here
Thread 'My Quartal Journey' https://www.talkbass.com/threads/my-quartal-journey.1658167/
I hope you will understand.
So if I understand correctly, everything you are referring to is in direct relation to the melodic minor scale.
I'm not sure I would call it a problem in it self, but In C melodic minor (
sorry Terry Riley ) The segment B C D Eb create a diminished fourth/major 3rd. Then when you apply this concept to any chord you end up with a diminished fourth...C E G could be C Fb G if it comes from C Db Eb Fb and it's from the Db melodic minor scale.
C Eb G could be C Eb Abb because Eb Fb Gb Abb from Fb melodic minor.
This is what I understood from your other thread. I am not saying I agree with this but this is what I think you mean.
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