Interesting discovery with the SBMM Ray24 and SUB

[Murivan]

I have never heard of, and have never seen an AlNiCo bar magnet (in pickup design), not to say that they don’t exist...but I highly doubt an inexpensive pickup made over-seas would have one...
But traditional pickup design yields AlNiCo pole pieces and/or Ceramic Bar magnets.

[I have no idea how Neodymium pickups are designed, with Neo pole pieces or a Neo bar magnet...or something else...]

It's much more common in guitar pickup design. One more clue might be the apparent difference in color in the 2 bars, as if the surface was polished only on one side (e.g. north pole). So, better quality ceramic design?
Neodymium normally is silver and shiny/polished.

 

[Giffro]

If it were me I'd play it safe and just buy a US StingRay.

Loll I did

 

[eastcoasteddie]

It's much more common in guitar pickup design. One more clue might be the apparent difference in color in the 2 bars, as if the surface was polished only on one side (e.g. north pole). So, better quality ceramic design?
Neodymium normally is silver and shiny/polished.

They probably just paint one side of the magnet to differentiate North from South poles, like the ceramic magnets of my old Squier Affinity Jazz V pickups: the South Pole magnet is painted white.

But you can clearly see in Lobster’s photo that they are indeed different pickups - the Ray 24 pickup has copper shielding under the magnets while the Ray4 pickup does not.
View attachment 4051935 Have they changed manufacturing process over time? Who knows... Maybe the pickups are sourced from different factories?

 

[LowEndLobster]

They probably just paint one side of the magnet to differentiate North from South poles, like the ceramic magnets of my old Squier Affinity Jazz V pickups: the South Pole magnet is painted white.
View attachment 4051933
But you can clearly see in Lobster’s photo that they are indeed different pickups - the Ray 24 pickup has copper shielding under the magnets while the Ray4 pickup does not.
View attachment 4051935 Have they changed manufacturing process over time? Who knows... Maybe the pickups are sourced from different factories?

Thank you Eddie! I think that could explain it! They are indeed VERY different pickups with the SUB one being much much hotter (to the point of distortion when maxing the bass control on the EQ). The Ray24 sounds much better with the upgraded pickup, but that's pretty much the only major differentiating factor that pertains to the tone of the instrument. Construction and materials (besides the bridge which is a step up) are pretty much exactly the same as the SUB.

I'm on the fence with how I feel about the Ray24. I love my SUB projects because they're relatively inexpensive, fun, and the end result is usually very solid. As a tinkerer, I don't think the $200 premium over the SUB is worth it for the Ray24. There's so many great pickups and preamp combos out there (hell even the stock preamp isn't bad, you'll see when I do the Aguilar pickup/stock preamp vid).

I think the Ray24 is in a bit of a no-man's-land situation given how often the Ray34s go on sale ($599 at musicians friend for Ash body w/ roasted neck, sale just ended but I have no doubts it'll be back for the holidays). The SUB is $299 and I've paid as little as $210 for a brand new one (big sale). Where does that leave the Ray24? It's in a weird middle ground. The ambiguity surrounding the exact specs and components of each instrument does leave a bit of a sour taste too.

 

[sotua]

If it were me I'd play it safe and just buy a US StingRay.

I would like to do so - once I can find one for $400-ish new?

That aside, I just got a SBMM Luke guitar (not SUB series) and I'm seriously, seriously impressed. Impressed enough to check out prices on used USA Lukes (not impressed enough to pull the trigger though - more than 1k for an instrument is a bit too much for my budget and usage). I'm now a bit bummed that I never took SBMM seriously until now that the Cutlass CT50 is discontinued, I need a strat, don't like paying the fender tax, and the new SBMM cutlass is SUB series so lower quality hardware/electronics.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Counterpoint - it comes in yellow.

 

[CatchaCuda]

The SUB with the two wires is the traditional Stingray way, where it is wired in parallel under the cover (though I think someone on here said once that the SUB is actually wired in Series...must use an ohm meter to check).

My SUB looks to be wired in parallel. Checked neck coil- 3.2K ohm. Bridge coil- 3.2K ohm. 2 leads going to volume pot- 1.6K ohm... parallel, right?

I've got an overabundance of DPDT switches, I'll have to play around with it some day.

 

[LowEndLobster]

My SUB looks to be wired in parallel. Checked neck coil- 3.2K ohm. Bridge coil- 3.2K ohm. 2 leads going to volume pot- 1.6K ohm... parallel, right?

I've got an overabundance of DPDT switches, I'll have to play around with it some day.

Thank you for this! I just took a dremel to one of my extra SUB pickups laying around, I think this confirms that they're wired in parallel too.

SCIENCE!

 

[CatchaCuda]

Thank you for this! I just took a dremel to one of my extra SUB pickups laying around, I think this confirms that they're wired in parallel too.
View attachment 4052071

SCIENCE!

jeez, you went right to the bone saw? My cover came off with some persuading.

 

[LowEndLobster]

jeez, you went right to the bone saw? My cover came off with some persuading. View attachment 4052074

LOL, whoops ;P.

 

[CatchaCuda]

LOL, whoops ;P.

View attachment 4052078

After looking at your pic, I think I misinterpreted. I thought you cut the pickup cover into bits. Or maybe you did? Like you said- "SCIENCE!"

 

[LowEndLobster]

After looking at your pic, I think I misinterpreted. I thought you cut the pickup cover into bits. Or maybe you did? Like you said- "SCIENCE!"

Nope just took a dremel to the glue holding in the pickup guts. Looks like I may have hit the wires, but we still get most of the picture. Thank you for your less heavy handed approach ;P

 

[P Cheen]

Once again the naming convention by MM makes things confusing..my Indonesian made Sterling By Music Man S.U.B. Ray4 being a classic example of confusing naming.

I agree, they screwed themselves with the naming. I just refer to the imports as SBMM, the import SUB as SBMM SUB (or Ray4), and the US-made stuff as EBMM. Additionally, the US-made Sterling or SUB as EBMM Sterling or EBMM SUB.

If it were me I'd play it safe and just buy a US StingRay.

Not everyone can afford a US StingRay. There is much more value in buying imported, and modding it to your liking. For most people, the process is just as enjoyable as the finished product. But to each their own. I own many high-end MIM Fenders and a couple of MIA Fenders but I find myself enjoying more with my Squier and SBMM.

Both pickups indeed have Ceramic magnets, as evident by the two long bars running under the pole pieces.
The AlNiCo magnets are the pole pieces themselves whereas the Ceramic magnets are the bars under the iron pole pieces.

But I can see from the photo that the Ray24 pickup IS wired in series. If you take the Red and White pair to ground you will cancel that coil and have SC mode (hint...). Parallel wiring would have Black/Red together as Hot, and White/Green together on ground.

Oof. I wasn’t expecting this. I might encounter several wiring problems when installing my Nordys then. Will definitely go back to this thread in a couple days to seek help. Of course I’d want it to be wired parallel because this is basically my first StingRay (bar the brief period I owned a Ray34) and I want to experience it as such.

I did both. Got the Nordy pup and put in a John East MM pre. The pre is worth the price! 3 band with sweepable mids.

Sweet! Yeah, looks like i’ll still be installing the Nordy, but I’m also looking at the Nordstrand 2-band 3-knob preamp. How much did the John East set you back?

 

[P Cheen]

Here is what the Nordstrand MM DUAL Coil pup looks like. View attachment 4051810

Noob question here but... is this series or parallel by default? And what way did you eventually wire it up?

 

[LowEndLobster]

I agree, they screwed themselves with the naming. I just refer to the imports as SBMM, the import SUB as SBMM SUB (or Ray4), and the US-made stuff as EBMM. Additionally, the US-made Sterling or SUB as EBMM Sterling or EBMM SUB.


Not everyone can afford a US StingRay. There is much more value in buying imported, and modding it to your liking. For most people, the process is just as enjoyable as the finished product. But to each their own. I own many high-end MIM Fenders and a couple of MIA Fenders but I find myself enjoying more with my Squier and SBMM.


Oof. I wasn’t expecting this. I might encounter several wiring problems when installing my Nordys then. Will definitely go back to this thread in a couple days to seek help. Of course I’d want it to be wired parallel because this is basically my first StingRay (bar the brief period I owned a Ray34) and I want to experience it as such.


Sweet! Yeah, looks like i’ll still be installing the Nordy, but I’m also looking at the Nordstrand 2-band 3-knob preamp. How much did the John East set you back?

My Nordy stuff comes on Monday, going with their dual coil MM pickup and a 3 band-3 knob arrangement (stacks!). The full Nordy setup was around $270 I think.

 

[LowEndLobster]

Noob question here but... is this series or parallel by default? And what way did you eventually wire it up?

I hope this helps, but the answer is "neither" as the each bank of coils has it's own dedicated lead and ground. This allows you to wire it how you see fit, or to install as switch (did this on my SUB Project Mint-o-ray) to go between series and parallel. The terminating end of the pickup wire is comprised of four wires vs the single lead and ground on the SUB pickup (which appears to be wired in parallel as well)

 

[P Cheen]

My Nordy stuff comes on Monday, going with their dual coil MM pickup and a 3 band-3 knob arrangement (stacks!). The full Nordy setup was around $270 I think.

Thanks Lobster! Helpful as always. What a coincidence, my Nordy MM4.2 comes on Monday too! I got it on sale for $95. Currently watching a brand new Nordy 2-band EQ preamp for $156.
As always, can’t wait for your content!

I agree this whole Ray24/Ray4 thing does leave a sour taste in my mouth, but at the end of the day I genuinely enjoy the instrument and I can confidently say it will be a permanent workhorse in my stable. It’s my number one...for now.

 

[DWBass]

Interesting. I was under the impression the Ray24 had a preamp and pickup and bridge that was supposed to be exactly like the US Stingray basses hence the higher price. I'm almost sure this was presented to the public when they first hit the scene. So now it seems the only "difference" is just the pickup and bridge. Is it worth $200 more?

 

[klaymaster]

Thanks for this post, Lobster. SUB for me.

 

[Killing Floor]

Interesting. When you think about the preamp, specifically, it makes sense that they are the same.
It would cost a lot of time and money to engineer and/or specify a different preamp and test it through their platform. So a consumer can benefit from the preamp that may be an advantage for the price point of the Sub.

It also makes marketing sense to present the preamp as a "feature" for the R24 compared to the Sub because that might influence someone to choose the higher priced and more profitable model. In practical terms it doesn't really matter that it's the same assembled circuit board, it's being leveraged as a marketing influencer.

Pretty clever.