Interesting discovery with the SBMM Ray24 and SUB

[P Cheen]

Now this’ll beg the ultimate SBMM question: what’s the actual difference between the Ray24 and 34? Bar the roasted maple neck, tuners, preamp, and (possibly) the pickup.
They are, after all, about $300 apart in MSRP.

 

[P Cheen]

I guess the only way to tell re: alnico or ceramic pickups on the Ray24 is if @LowEndLobster directly shoots out his Ray24 and 34. I understand the latter has a mid knob, but I’m sure he’ll find a way to control most variables, if not all.

 

[Johnny Alien]

Eh, I get it. I just wish there was more transparency from SBMM in regards to what the components actually are. I understand the benefit to them from a marketing and monetary standpoint. The Ray24 is being marketed as a classic style instrument, so it makes sense to tailor the verbiage to amplify that image.

From a consumer standpoint, I think transparency is important in building trust between a brand and the consumer. I don't think SBMM is being malicious here, there's a lot of moving parts in an organization like that. I just wish they'd offer some level of additional specifics to folks would know exactly what they're buying. It should be very clear from looking at the two spec sheets what the differences between these two instruments, but it's not. Even searching and looking through past threads (some which have a TON of misinformation), it was difficult to get a clear answer.

I've long had a problem with SBMM and transparency. They make it sound like they are closer tied to EBMM than they are. Most of the ad copy implies that they are checked out and set up at the EBMM factory when in reality it's a totally separate company that licenses the design. EBMM has oversight into what they do but have no part in any of the manufacturing or setup.

 

[Highroler79]

nice here is my SUB4 it is a early MIA version I changed the pickgaurd on it. I have not been using it much lately just got a Warwick Streamer

 

[MaxSpinrun]

Noob question here but... is this series or parallel by default? And what way did you eventually wire it up?

Wired the pup in parallel. The John East pre se me back about 203.00 from BBG. Nordy pup, 114.00 direct from them. The East pre really is a gem. Sweepable mids are nice if you need to tweek that much if in center detent position, acts more like 2 band pre. More bass than standard. Treble has pull bright function which will give all the sizzle you want. This pup pre combo will give you a smoothness reminiscent of 70’s MM TONE.

 

[P Cheen]

Wired the pup in parallel. The John East pre se me back about 203.00 from BBG. Nordy pup, 114.00 direct from them. The East pre really is a gem. Sweepable mids are nice if you need to tweek that much if in center detent position, acts more like 2 band pre. More bass than standard. Treble has pull bright function which will give all the sizzle you want. This pup pre combo will give you a smoothness reminiscent of 70’s MM TONE.

Looks like my Nordstrand arrived a couple days early! I just want to confirm, for parallel, red + black = hot right?
And shield is the bare wire?

I only recently learned to solder so forgive my noob questions!

 

[MaxSpinrun]

Looks like my Nordstrand arrived a couple days early! I just want to confirm, for parallel, red + black = hot right?
And shield is the bare wire?

I only recently learned to solder so forgive my noob questions!

View attachment 4053883

That’s how I wired mine. According to the parallel color code description. One of the beauties of the John East pre is that all of the connections are solderless.

 

[SteveCS]

Hmmmmmm.... the plot thickens!

still.... it could be the same pickup as the Ray 34. The covers may be the only difference.
That seems like it would be easier and cheaper to switch covers than to source an entirely new pickup for a bass at that price point...
I’m just late night speculating here so forgive me

The Ray34 piclkup is Alnico. Alnico pickups don't have those bar magnets along the bottom. At least I've never seen one built that way. With Alnico the slugs are the magnets. The Ray24 pickup looks like ceramic, based on what we can see of the construction.
Left is from my 2012 Ray34 (the black stuff is remains of the support foam) and right is from my '92 EBMM StingRay.

 

[LowEndLobster]

The Ray34 piclkup is Alnico. Alnico pickups don't have those bar magnets along the bottom. At least I've never seen one built that way. With Alnico the slugs are the magnets. The Ray24 pickup looks like ceramic, based on what we can see of the construction.
Left is from my 2012 Ray34 (the black stuff is remains of the support foam) and right is from my '92 EBMM StingRay.
View attachment 4054076

DUDE THANK YOU! I already got rid of my Ray34 a month or two ago after I did my full review... kind of regretting it for the sake of comparisons... Gonna wait for another MF sale lol. Back on topic, THANK YOU. I think we can confirm that the Ray24 is ceramic and the magnets are probably painted. It's definitely a different pickup, just a higher end ceramic pickup.

So far we've confirmed:
-Preamp is the same as SUB
-Pickup is still ceramic, though different than SUB
-Neck is same as SUB but w/ vintage tint

I hope this info can help some folks as even with some digging, it was hard to get a clear answer of what actually is in the Ray24.

 

[klaymaster]

Hey all,

Some of you may know that the SUB is one of my favorite modding platforms. I've done many videos (and many more coming) on various SUB mod projects over the past 8+ months, swapping in and out various pickup and preamp combos and owning multiple examples. One thing that has never been abundantly clear is- what's the difference between the Ray4 (SUB) and Ray24. Various vendor website as well as the official SBMM have conflicting and vague (as well as inaccurate!) descriptions of the Ray24 and its components.

The official SBMM website lists the pickup for the Ray24 as the H-1 Ceramic humbucker (same listed as SUB), a 2 band preamp "designed to provide the warm 70's sound", "mahogany" slab body, improved bridge, narrower nut (from a standard ray), and that's about it.

View attachment 4051566

Well, I finally got one in the other day and decided to open 'er up and see what the deal is.

Let's start with the preamp- It's the exact same as the SUB. Exact same.

View attachment 4051567

I find that kind of deceiving to state that this preamp was "designed to provide the warm 70's sound" for the Ray24, yet say nothing more than 9v 2 band preamp for the Ray4/SUB when they're exactly the same. That's not to say the preamp wasn't designed for this sound, but to leave it out of the less premium product and then include that statement for the Ray24 makes it seem as if they're potentially different preamps.

Onto the pickup, they are very much not the same pickup, even though the website has them both listed as H-1 Humbucker. The Ray4 is using a ceramic humbucker with a single wire that has two layers (I forget what that's called), the outside being the ground and inside (shielded of course) being the hot. The Ray24 on the other hand appears to have alnico magnets (lighter gray vs black, pretty sure this is alnico), and copper shielding present. The wiring of the Ray24 pickup is also the more "traditional" Stingray wiring, giving you the ability to setup a series/parallel/single switch, whereas the SUB pickup does not have that flexibility.

View attachment 4051568
(left is SUB, right is ray24)

View attachment 4051569

In regards to the body material, the grain through the finish doesn't look like mahogany. This might be some of that "eastern mahogany", common on cheaper instruments, but this doesn't appear to have the same type of grain as what we'd consider "mahogany".

The neck is exactly the same for the Ray4/SUB and Ray24, the 24 just has a vintage tint to it. They're otherwise identical in both dimension and wood quality. Tuners are the same, control plate, pots, and push on knobs are the same.

The bridge is the other big differentiating factor, and is a nice upgrade from the cheaper SUB bridge. That being said, there wasn't much wrong with the regular SUB bridge in terms of functionality, and could be easily modded with a dremel and $35 mute kit to look like a classic bridge (or swapped out for an aftermarket bridge) if you're looking for something different.

The regular price of a Ray4/SUB is $299 USD, and the Ray24 $499 USD. The $200 difference yields a difference in body material (whether it's an upgrade or not is anyone's guess), an upgraded pickup, different finish (I've had no qualms or issues with SUB finishes both matte and gloss), tinted neck, and upgraded bridge. Is it worth it? That's not for me to decide, everyone's different and $200 means something different to everyone. Personally, I'd go for an SUB and mod it, but I'm glad I have the opportunity to investigate this further and clear up any questions regarding the differences between these two instruments.

I'll be doing a full review video on the Ray24, as well as a comparison between a Ray4/SUB w/ an Aguilar pickup and stock preamp, stock/stock, as well as other SUB and EBMM Stingray content looking at the differences between these. Hope this helped clear some things up about the differences between these two models! Lobster OUT!

Out of curiosity I checked the pickup that came out of my 2014 sub and the 2 magnets look like different colors. Like your ray24.

 

[jd56hawk]

Hey all,

Some of you may know that the SUB is one of my favorite modding platforms. I've done many videos (and many more coming) on various SUB mod projects over the past 8+ months, swapping in and out various pickup and preamp combos and owning multiple examples. One thing that has never been abundantly clear is- what's the difference between the Ray4 (SUB) and Ray24. Various vendor website as well as the official SBMM have conflicting and vague (as well as inaccurate!) descriptions of the Ray24 and its components.

The official SBMM website lists the pickup for the Ray24 as the H-1 Ceramic humbucker (same listed as SUB), a 2 band preamp "designed to provide the warm 70's sound", "mahogany" slab body, improved bridge, narrower nut (from a standard ray), and that's about it.

View attachment 4051566

Well, I finally got one in the other day and decided to open 'er up and see what the deal is.

Let's start with the preamp- It's the exact same as the SUB. Exact same.

View attachment 4051567

I find that kind of deceiving to state that this preamp was "designed to provide the warm 70's sound" for the Ray24, yet say nothing more than 9v 2 band preamp for the Ray4/SUB when they're exactly the same. That's not to say the preamp wasn't designed for this sound, but to leave it out of the less premium product and then include that statement for the Ray24 makes it seem as if they're potentially different preamps.

Onto the pickup, they are very much not the same pickup, even though the website has them both listed as H-1 Humbucker. The Ray4 is using a ceramic humbucker with a single wire that has two layers (I forget what that's called), the outside being the ground and inside (shielded of course) being the hot. The Ray24 on the other hand appears to have alnico magnets (lighter gray vs black, pretty sure this is alnico), and copper shielding present. The wiring of the Ray24 pickup is also the more "traditional" Stingray wiring, giving you the ability to setup a series/parallel/single switch, whereas the SUB pickup does not have that flexibility.

View attachment 4051568
(left is SUB, right is ray24)

View attachment 4051569

In regards to the body material, the grain through the finish doesn't look like mahogany. This might be some of that "eastern mahogany", common on cheaper instruments, but this doesn't appear to have the same type of grain as what we'd consider "mahogany".

The neck is exactly the same for the Ray4/SUB and Ray24, the 24 just has a vintage tint to it. They're otherwise identical in both dimension and wood quality. Tuners are the same, control plate, pots, and push on knobs are the same.

The bridge is the other big differentiating factor, and is a nice upgrade from the cheaper SUB bridge. That being said, there wasn't much wrong with the regular SUB bridge in terms of functionality, and could be easily modded with a dremel and $35 mute kit to look like a classic bridge (or swapped out for an aftermarket bridge) if you're looking for something different.

The regular price of a Ray4/SUB is $299 USD, and the Ray24 $499 USD. The $200 difference yields a difference in body material (whether it's an upgrade or not is anyone's guess), an upgraded pickup, different finish (I've had no qualms or issues with SUB finishes both matte and gloss), tinted neck, and upgraded bridge. Is it worth it? That's not for me to decide, everyone's different and $200 means something different to everyone. Personally, I'd go for an SUB and mod it, but I'm glad I have the opportunity to investigate this further and clear up any questions regarding the differences between these two instruments.

I'll be doing a full review video on the Ray24, as well as a comparison between a Ray4/SUB w/ an Aguilar pickup and stock preamp, stock/stock, as well as other SUB and EBMM Stingray content looking at the differences between these. Hope this helped clear some things up about the differences between these two models! Lobster OUT!

So I should buy a Ray 34?

 

[P Cheen]

So I should buy a Ray 34?

Up to you. Personally I think there is a lot of value to be had with either the Ray4 or Ray24. If you must have a 3-band EQ and a roasted maple neck then the Ray34 is the way to go. I just think [brand new] it’s a little on the pricier side for [feel-wise] not a lot of improvement over the Ray24.

 

[jd56hawk]

Thanks.
I'm not planning on buying one, but I've seen some good deals on used ones lately...I'm talking $450 to $500.

 

[P Cheen]

Thanks.
I'm not planning on buying one, but I've seen some good deals on used one lately...I'm talking $450 to $500.

I see some of those here and there, but I notice they’re mostly (if not all) the older version. The one that has “Ray34” on the headstock instead of the more recent ones that say “StingRay” and have the roasted necks and fancy finishes.
I’m not implying the older ones are worse, I’m just saying with import models the consistency of quality (and factory) may change over time.

 

[jd56hawk]

I see some of those here and there, but I notice they’re mostly (if not all) the older version. The one that has “Ray34” on the headstock instead of the more recent ones that say “StingRay” and have the roasted necks and fancy finishes.
I’m not implying the older ones are worse, I’m just saying with import models the consistency of quality (and factory) may change over time.

Had this one when it first came out.
Should've kept it, but in those days, I was flipping basses like mad.

 

[stuntbass77]

Eh, I get it. I just wish there was more transparency from SBMM in regards to what the components actually are. I understand the benefit to them from a marketing and monetary standpoint. The Ray24 is being marketed as a classic style instrument, so it makes sense to tailor the verbiage to amplify that image.

From a consumer standpoint, I think transparency is important in building trust between a brand and the consumer. I don't think SBMM is being malicious here, there's a lot of moving parts in an organization like that. I just wish they'd offer some level of additional specifics to folks would know exactly what they're buying. It should be very clear from looking at the two spec sheets what the differences between these two instruments, but it's not. Even searching and looking through past threads (some which have a TON of misinformation), it was difficult to get a clear answer.

Totally agree. They should be more specific as to the pickups and preamp. I’m sure they may spend a little time on the ray24’s frets and finish but they should state that as well. I’m sure the same parts for the most part are used. As a happy owned of a SBMM SB14 ( also owned a ray34 but neck and tone just were not for me ) I have to say they make some of the best stuff. The import stuff is quality just like the US. Now the US models are their best stuff and worth the money if a stingray or sterling is your main workhorse. It’s not my overall favorite tone so the SB14 totally fits for me. I like to tinker as well and that’s half the fun and pleasure ! Thanks for sharing this valuable info !

 

[stuntbass77]

I see some of those here and there, but I notice they’re mostly (if not all) the older version. The one that has “Ray34” on the headstock instead of the more recent ones that say “StingRay” and have the roasted necks and fancy finishes.
I’m not implying the older ones are worse, I’m just saying with import models the consistency of quality (and factory) may change over time.

I had an older model ray34 ( not roasted ). I prefer the older version as I found the roasting process to be to bright for me. I know I’m opening that “tone woods” box but I can here a difference. I will say that if you ever play a roasted and completely unfinished neck you will feel like it’s the fastest neck you have ever played. For someone looking for a really bright tone, I say “ go roasted and enjoy “ !!!

 

[stuntbass77]

With regard to Tribute electronics vs. US electronics; the L2500 tribute for example uses metric pots and the same circuitry, but the board’s components (resistors, diodes, caps, etc) are of “less expensive” components with looser tolerances that can lead to hiss or noise. They aren’t “the exact same components”, but only cheaper copies. I’ve read on here that even the bridges, although look the same, aren’t cast of the same metals. I don’t know of the G&L US bridges are brass or steel though. Tuning machines for sure are not Schaller’s on the Tribute models.


And I was just thinking of G&L with regard to @LowEndLobster ... I know he has an EBMM fetish, but he hasn’t dove into the G&L rabbit hole just yet. I think he should get a Kiloton to whet the appetite...

Had a tribute L2500 and it was a very nice bass for the money but it wasn’t a US model. It was like the ray34 in that it played great and action was nice but the tone did not sit well with me over time. I had a pinging noise and it was driving me crazy and turned out to be the springs they used to raise the pickups.I fixed it using foam in place of the springs. I know the US models may use the springs as well but I also wondered if the pickup hadn’t gone a bit micro phonic. Anyway, not the reason I sold the bass. Just an FYI if anyone hears a pinging sound in their tribute L2500.

 

[xhawk5]

I have a USA S.U.B. slab body with Status neck. I replaced the pickup with an Aguilar and an OBP-2 pre. V-T-B. THE BEST sounding Ray I've ever played... (Good thread here).

 

[lownoteBb]

I'm sure most of you are aware that a clone of the original Stingray 2-band pre can be easily put together for under $20.....All info is on Talkbass.
Very simple circuit for the DIYer....