Interesting discovery with the SBMM Ray24 and SUB

#42
Killing Floor said:
Interesting. When you think about the preamp, specifically, it makes sense that they are the same.
It would cost a lot of time and money to engineer and/or specify a different preamp and test it through their platform. So a consumer can benefit from the preamp that may be an advantage for the price point of the Sub.

It also makes marketing sense to present the preamp as a "feature" for the R24 compared to the Sub because that might influence someone to choose the higher priced and more profitable model. In practical terms it doesn't really matter that it's the same assembled circuit board, it's being leveraged as a marketing influencer.

Pretty clever.
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Eh, I get it. I just wish there was more transparency from SBMM in regards to what the components actually are. I understand the benefit to them from a marketing and monetary standpoint. The Ray24 is being marketed as a classic style instrument, so it makes sense to tailor the verbiage to amplify that image.

From a consumer standpoint, I think transparency is important in building trust between a brand and the consumer. I don't think SBMM is being malicious here, there's a lot of moving parts in an organization like that. I just wish they'd offer some level of additional specifics to folks would know exactly what they're buying. It should be very clear from looking at the two spec sheets what the differences between these two instruments, but it's not. Even searching and looking through past threads (some which have a TON of misinformation), it was difficult to get a clear answer.
 
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#43
Lesfunk said:
This is what I find confusing.
They’re mentioning the preamp as a feature of the 24 although it’s the same as the SUB, yet chose not to feature the pickup which is obviously an upgrade.
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That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out! This seems more of a marketing flub than malicious deception IMO. The Ray24 is a great sounding and great playing bass, I just want it to be clearly stated what the differences are!
 
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#45
LowEndLobster said:
Eh, I get it. I just wish there was more transparency from SBMM in regards to what the components actually are. I understand the benefit to them from a marketing and monetary standpoint. The Ray24 is being marketed as a classic style instrument, so it makes sense to tailor the verbiage to amplify that image.

From a consumer standpoint, I think transparency is important in building trust between a brand and the consumer. I don't think SBMM is being malicious here, there's a lot of moving parts in an organization like that. I just wish they'd offer some level of additional specifics to folks would know exactly what they're buying. It should be very clear from looking at the two spec sheets what the differences between these two instruments, but it's not. Even searching and looking through past threads (some which have a TON of misinformation), it was difficult to get a clear answer.
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In a way it's like if you buy a laptop. The fundamental components might be common goods between the base model and the premium. Your question is valid, I'm a consumer too. But it's by design that they don't tell us the similarities. This is done to drive they buyer to the higher, more profitable model. I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying I am interested in the process.
 
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#46
That Bongo looks fantastic!
ar4d7on-png.png


Was that a build-to-order paint job?
 
#48
Killing Floor said:
In a way it's like if you buy a laptop. The fundamental components might be common goods between the base model and the premium. Your question is valid, I'm a consumer too. But it's by design that they don't tell us the similarities. This is done to drive they buyer to the higher, more profitable model. I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying I am interested in the process.
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Solid example! Even with laptops, you get the full specs. The Ray24 spec page is the equivalent of a laptop spec sheet reading "it has a screen, an intel i5, and some RAM" when you'd expect something like an i5-9500U, 8 GB of DDR4 2666, 1080p screen. They put the marketing fluff first, but they'll always tell you exactly what's inside and it's up to you as the consumer to research. But trying to track down what's actually being used because a spec sheet is inaccurate or vague would not give me a lot of confidence in that laptop brand. Imagine having to look google "What engine is in the 2020 Honda LobsterRoll Type R" because the marketing flyers and technical specs said "engine- yes". That's the line that Sterling is teetering, and I think they can continue to do so because musical instruments aren't regulated vs something like a computer or a car.
 
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#49
EmaTheMirror said:
Further to my previous post: how do those Sterling BY MusicMan (again... not the MM Sterlings... see my point?) compare to similar offerings such as Squier Classic Vibe and G&L Tribute?
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G&L tribute are exact copies of their US counterparts much like the Ray34 is the exact copy of a Stingray (can't remember which model but there is one !). The Ray34 'naturally' sounds like a Stingray, whereas the Sub aka Ray4 has a preamp 'voiced' so that it sounds like a Stingray.
I have 2 G&L tribute (MJ-4 and M-2500). Both needs to go to the luthier, the M for a minor fret job, the MJ-4 for not so minor fret job (slight ski ramp). I also had a Ray34 which was absolutely great and that I replaced by a MM Sabre.
One thing to keep in mind is that even if electronics are copies of the US models, tolerances aren't as tight and you may end up with electronics that substantially depart from the original. With G&L it seems easy to get original US parts, not with EBMM.
What is not clear from this SUB/Ray24 comparison (and is difficult to assess I guess) is if the workmanship (or rather CNCship) fretwork etc. is the same on both models ?
 
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#51
Hmmm. It could be nato, sapele, or any number of other "Asian mahogany" woods. Not that these woods are bad (I have an acoustic guitar with a laminate sapele body and a bass with a non-descript Asian mahogany body; both sound great), but the instrument manufacturers do need to enlighten consumers better about their instruments. This is especially true since many, many players still associate the term mahogany with Honduran mahogany, not inclusive of the other woods that are now referred to as mahogany, irrespective of their genus or species.
 
#52
Lesfunk said:
I see an entire video series opportunity here. “Demystifying the SBMM product line”
Take em apart and compare components to really see whats inside them and how the components relate to their prices
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Some years ago it was quite clear. Ray34 was an asian Stingray clone, the SB14 a clone of the EBMM Sterling and the Sub a cheap bass that sounded as much as possible as a Stingray. Then the SB14 was discontinued and Ray34CA appeared with a jazz neck (like the SB14).
Finally the Ray24 bridged the gap between a more expensive Ray34 and the SUB-Ray4. IMO, it's an hybrid between the sub and the ray34 but advertised more or less as a Ray34 alternative so (and once again IMO) it's not really fair.
 
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#55
This looks to me like a manufacturer trying to take the same basic design and come up with little steps between adjacent tiers.

I would posit that Squiers and Fenders would likely end up with even smaller steps should you dissect them, given how many tiers they have.
 
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#56
knight of ni said:
G&L tribute are exact copies of their US counterparts much like the Ray34 is the exact copy of a Stingray (can't remember which model but there is one !). The Ray34 'naturally' sounds like a Stingray, whereas the Sub aka Ray4 has a preamp 'voiced' so that it sounds like a Stingray.
I have 2 G&L tribute (MJ-4 and M-2500). Both needs to go to the luthier, the M for a minor fret job, the MJ-4 for not so minor fret job (slight ski ramp). I also had a Ray34 which was absolutely great and that I replaced by a MM Sabre.
One thing to keep in mind is that even if electronics are copies of the US models, tolerances aren't as tight and you may end up with electronics that substantially depart from the original. With G&L it seems easy to get original US parts, not with EBMM.
What is not clear from this SUB/Ray24 comparison (and is difficult to assess I guess) is if the workmanship (or rather CNCship) fretwork etc. is the same on both models ?
Click to expand...
With regard to Tribute electronics vs. US electronics; the L2500 tribute for example uses metric pots and the same circuitry, but the board’s components (resistors, diodes, caps, etc) are of “less expensive” components with looser tolerances that can lead to hiss or noise. They aren’t “the exact same components”, but only cheaper copies. I’ve read on here that even the bridges, although look the same, aren’t cast of the same metals. I don’t know of the G&L US bridges are brass or steel though. Tuning machines for sure are not Schaller’s on the Tribute models.


And I was just thinking of G&L with regard to @LowEndLobster ... I know he has an EBMM fetish, but he hasn’t dove into the G&L rabbit hole just yet. I think he should get a Kiloton to whet the appetite...;)
 
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#58
eastcoasteddie said:
With regard to Tribute electronics vs. US electronics; the L2500 tribute for example uses metric pots and the same circuitry, but the board’s components (resistors, diodes, caps, etc) are of “less expensive” components with looser tolerances that can lead to hiss or noise. They aren’t “the exact same components”, but only cheaper copies. I’ve read on here that even the bridges, although look the same, aren’t cast of the same metals. I don’t know of the G&L US bridges are brass or steel though. Tuning machines for sure are not Schaller’s on the Tribute models.


And I was just thinking of G&L with regard to @LowEndLobster ... I know he has an EBMM fetish, but he hasn’t dove into the G&L rabbit hole just yet. I think he should get a Kiloton to whet the appetite...;)
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You're absolutely right, I meant exact copies in terms of wiring, schematics, pickup nature, etc. Obviously a compromise has to be made on materials and electronic components to reach the pricing.
But I think there's a difference between an 'exact clone' and a bass that is meant to sound like the real one but is not built on the same principles.
 
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