Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!

[Michael Schreiber]

The piece I'm talking about was to be played as a solo piece with no accompaniment - so there really is no "musical context"

Why? If you're playing along a recording, then the recording would be the musical context, right?
You could even prefer a recording you actually like. Isn't that an advantage over a metronome?

 

[FantasticFour]

That's what I do with Beethoven's Romance in F Major - in order to practice especially the turns (ornaments on violin).
I have the player repeat the whole intro in order to learn the turns in their musical context.

So, I wonder what's the benefit of prefering a metronome to the musical context?

Wow, I played classical more than thirty years and never even thought of doing that. What it could be useful for I wouldn't even know (I feel like it would be worse than a metronome because it's not neutral) but hey, as long as it works for you!

 

[Michael Schreiber]

(I feel like it would be worse than a metronome because it's not neutral)

That's the word; neutral. Thanks so much. I should have put that word into my question
So, may I ask you, what to you the benefit of the metronome being neutral is when learning classical music?

 

[aborgman]

Why? If you're playing along a recording, then the recording would be the musical context, right?

Not in the usual English language definition of "context".

Isn't that an advantage over a metronome?

There are advantage of a loop, in that it gives you something to imitate. There are disadvantages to a loop, in that it can hide aurally your mistakes in ways a metronome does not.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Speaking of loops, have you tried using a software or hardware looper?
I ask because again it becomes very obvious how your timing is. I find it quite an interesting challenge to play with wrong or badly created loop. And I'm not talking about quantized looping but true free form looping.

By the way when I first read this thread I just thought this was someone calling himself Jeff Berlin, not the actual player/educator. Not that it makes any difference to the subject.

Also I would suggest every bass player should learn to play the drums or percussion. It has helped my timing/playing by so many levels more than going to music school.
Dirk

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Not in the usual English language definition of "context".

Please, don't tell me things like what is played before, after, as well as phrasing and expression are not a context for the passage you want to practice. I agree that there is no such context when practicing just that passage with a metronome. Yet, practicing to my favorite recording of a musical passage which I want to learn, to me it is the context in which I need to improve my timing. I don't feel any improvement learning ornaments separately without that context. And once I feel improvement, I can switch to a different interpretation (from Karajan to Mazel, for example) in order to check if I only improved mechanically or grasped the vibe.

There are advantage of a loop, in that it gives you something to imitate. There are disadvantages to a loop, in that it can hide aurally your mistakes in ways a metronome does not.

Yes, I agree. That may really be the hard part in the beginning. Especially when learning something very new, I notice myself that I focus on my playing - and the ability to concentrate on what's going on around me is suffering. That also needs practice. That's where recording oneself, IMHO, comes in handy. But I won't argue, your point is taken.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

Speaking of loops, have you tried using a software or hardware looper?

As for me: I have no experience with a hardware looper, yet. I guess, it can be challenging to get used to starting and stopping it properly to the beat. In software (for practice) that's not an issue; you're free to set up anything. The simplest setup for me is usually just a count in or pause before starting, so I can grab my instrument and get ready.
That's a must, IMHO

Do you practice with a hardware looper? Can you propose that?

 

[FantasticFour]

That's the word; neutral. Thanks so much. I should have put that word into my question
So, may I ask you, what to you the benefit of the metronome being neutral is when learning classical music?

Well, right now I woudn't know what the advantages of a metronome really are because this whole conversation with Jeff has led me to question my relationship (which, I admit, was always rather snuggly) with the metronome. Have I improved because of it? Or have I improved at the same time I was using it because of the focus I was putting into improving, of which the use of a metronome was just a materialization?

Anyway, for me the metronome was NEVER about keeping time. My music theory teacher would always tell me to stop counting and 'go freestyle' at rhythm reading exam because she knew I would be getting it right.
It was more a way of smoothing out coordination. A muscle thing to ensure equality between the fingers. You know, the infamous triplet thing. Everything sounds perfect when you play it in eighths, and you try it in triplet and it's suddenly clear that one of your fingers is way weaker or clumsier than the others in a specific gesture. That's the kind of thing I used to sort out with the help of a metronome. It would underline muscular weakness and lack of coordination. Nothing to do at all with timing.

Now I can tell you why I would favor a metronome over a loop: it doesn't annoy me with a different tone of instrument than mine (or slight differences in tuning), doesn't imprint on my musical understanding of a line someone else's interpretation, doesn't force me to stop playing to stop the loop once I've completed the exercice, and so on.

That still doesn't mean it's good. I was musically brought up in a system where discussing it was not an option. I remember buying my first metronome when I was 4, all I got to pick was the color (I picked orange ). Then the teacher would indicate the tempos I was supposed to reach for next class. That was it.

 

[aborgman]

Please, don't tell me things like what is played before, after, as well as phrasing and expression are not a context for the passage you want to practice.

We're talking one measure, with no accompaniment, where the loop is purely your instrument playing exactly the identical thing you're attempting to play.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Yes I use both software and hardware loopers very often. I also use them locked to time or freestyle.
One way I use them is for percussive, or bass parts, or chords, and then easily solo/melody or harmonize lines over that.
And I'm not talking about 1 measure, it could be that short, but most times not.

The record on is the easy one, the record stop, that's where the real challenge is.

This is a fascinating subject for sure.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

We're talking one measure, with no accompaniment, where the loop is purely your instrument playing exactly the identical thing you're attempting to play.

EDIT: I think I misunderstood your reply, sorry - but I leave the old reply here to not cause confusion:

And that's where I lack understanding: Why would I do that? Sounds to me like torture
Just kidding, not intending to make fun of it. So, please don't take it as an offense.

Well, right now I woudn't know what the advantages of a metronome really are because this whole conversation with Jeff has led me to question my relationship (which, I admit, was always rather snuggly) with the metronome. Have I improved because of it? Or have I improved at the same time I was using it because of the focus I was putting into improving, of which the use of a metronome was just a materialization?

Anyway, for me the metronome was NEVER about keeping time. My music theory teacher would always tell me to stop counting and 'go freestyle' at rhythm reading exam because she knew I would be getting it right.
It was more a way of smoothing out coordination. A muscle thing to ensure equality between the fingers. You know, the infamous triplet thing. Everything sounds perfect when you play it in eighths, and you try it in triplet and it's suddenly clear that one of your fingers is way weaker or clumsier than the others in a specific gesture. That's the kind of thing I used to sort out with the help of a metronome. It would underline muscular weakness and lack of coordination. Nothing to do at all with timing.

Now I can tell you why I would favor a metronome over a loop: it doesn't annoy me with a different tone of instrument than mine (or slight differences in tuning), doesn't imprint on my musical understanding of a line someone else's interpretation, doesn't force me to stop playing to stop the loop once I've completed the exercice, and so on.

That still doesn't mean it's good. I was musically brought up in a system where discussing it was not an option. I remember buying my first metronome when I was 4, all I got to pick was the color (I picked orange ). Then the teacher would indicate the tempos I was supposed to reach for next class. That was it.

Thank you for sharing your experience!
Good point, that someone else's interpretation or playing would distract and mislead.
Chances are that in that case, I'd also rather practice along a GuitarPro/TuxGuitar track (or a metronome).
I can relate to that. Again, good point, IMHO!

 

[Michael Schreiber]

We're talking one measure, with no accompaniment, where the loop is purely your instrument playing exactly the identical thing you're attempting to play.

Sorry, I misread your reply!
Still, I don't understand, what is the problem? In the intro of the Romance in F major, the violin also plays (almost) alone. So, I can play together with the recording. Don't see where the problem should be? Aside from what @FantasticFour mentioned: That it may distract. I understand that point.

 

[aborgman]

And that's where I lack understanding: Why would I do that? Sounds to me like torture

It kind of is torture - but it serves the purpose (like swinging a golf club exactly the same way thousands of times, or shooting a basketball exactly the same way thousands of times) of ingraining something in your subconscious and muscle memory.

See: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, and the "10,000 hour rule".

 

[aborgman]

Sorry, I misread your reply!
Still, I don't understand, what is the problem? In the intro of the Romance in F major, the violin also plays (almost) alone. So, I can play together with the recording. Don't see where the problem should be? Aside from what @FantasticFour mentioned: That it may distract. I understand that point.

There is nothing wrong with it - in fact, it can be very useful. It just isn't "context".

 

[Michael Schreiber]

It kind of is torture - but it serves the purpose (like swinging a golf club exactly the same way thousands of times, or shooting a basketball exactly the same way thousands of times) of ingraining something in your subconscious and muscle memory.

See: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell, and the "10,000 hour rule".

Thanks, this reply I think makes it clearer to me.
Still, we've arrived at the same earlier point, I think.
I don't see any meaning of swinging a golf club without hitting a ball. But I am no golfer, so I shut my mouth

Compared to the violin example it would translate to: Just practicing the single ornament - without respect to what is played before or after it; from which note I come, and to which note I go, right? (That's what I meant by "without context").
I don't see any meaning to this. I am not telling this would be wrong or you should not do it - I am just asking myself, what might be the benefit?

 

[aborgman]

Compared to the violin example it would translate to: Just practicing the single ornament - without respect to what is played before or after it; from which note I come, and to which note I go, right? (That's what I meant by "without context").
I don't see any meaning to this. I am not telling this would be wrong or you should not do it - I am just asking myself, what might be the benefit?

The purpose of doing so is to train your muscles/subconscious to do it, and do it more consistently/faster without conscious thought.

This is a very common thing in sports training.

 

[Michael Schreiber]

The purpose of doing so is to train your muscles/subconscious to do it, and do it more consistently/faster without conscious thought.

This is a very common thing in sports training.

Now, that's an answer, thank you.
Repeating the challenging parts of music in order to not have to think about it - I full agree with you on that.

On one hand, I still don't see why it would be done better with a metronome (or similar things like that), which was the initial question.

On the other hand, I guess it does not really matter. If it's about practicing the equivalent of "swinging a golf club isolated from the game of golf" on bass guitar, then I lack the understanding of the whole purpose; regardless whether it's done with a metronome or not.

To my mind, I train that every time I play, anyway.
But maybe there is an anatomical reason to do such isolated practice.
So, I cannot really argue that, and have to admit that this might be a point worth considering!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Today: Turn on PC, grab your bass, loop record
I mean, I see your point, and I agree: The less effort it is to practice, the easier it is to practice regularly.
Still, it's the 21st century... takes only one time to prepare the software. After that it's instant recording.
If that's an issue - then it's a lack of interest, will to improve, and self-discipline, IMHO.
And I would be surprised to see how a metronome would improve that

I've only ever seen a physical metronome once in my life. If a metronome is ever requested I have to bring up my DAW, then I might as well hit the drum tracks.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

That's the word; neutral. Thanks so much. I should have put that word into my question
So, may I ask you, what to you the benefit of the metronome being neutral is when learning classical music?

I started quite the trifle noting the often fluctuating tempos in classical music. Though I may have also not worded it in quite the best way.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Yes I use both software and hardware loopers very often. I also use them locked to time or freestyle.
One way I use them is for percussive, or bass parts, or chords, and then easily solo/melody or harmonize lines over that.
And I'm not talking about 1 measure, it could be that short, but most times not.

The record on is the easy one, the record stop, that's where the real challenge is.

This is a fascinating subject for sure.

I've beenlooking into the Trio+ pedal more and more lately. The ability to loops some chords and a melody on my bass, while having another bass in the background (or my own if I loop it a third time (not 100% sure if it supports multiple loops though, would make it much more useful though!)) and some drums would be amazing for working on improv!

Edit: Another great thing about the Trio+ is you can save multiple presets. Hello AABA song formats!