I'm not trying to disagree with you, just made me think of this interesting perspective on that. I had never heard of it before this video, now I've heard it twice I suppose.
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Jeff Berlin asks - What Is Taught Without Only Teaching the Facts!
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Thank you for your generous time in sharing these with me. Is there any study where the data shows that learning how to play an instrument is improved (or that one's ability to play in time is improved)by practicing with a metronome? I will concede completely that if stuttering or golfing require a metronome to help either solve or accomplish these things, I have no ground to stand on to state that a metronome isn't a helpful tool in these areas.
Mine is a rather specific view point; metronomes don't aid in the improvement of having a heightened sense of time or an improved ability to play the bass. This is the study material that most interests me to read if there is such a thing and that the testing was done by a neutral test person or group.
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I've nothing to add beyond my own example, which is from 30 years ago playing in a duo with a guitarist (singer/songwriter type). In that situation I was the primary source of time and I discovered that my ability to subdivide at slower tempi was somewhat lacking - I would tend to rush the long rests, if that makes sense. I used a metronome to train myself to count slowly - playing 1 to the bar against a click 1 to the bar whilst counting 4 (internally) and aiming to have my 1 come back in time and not early. The idea was not to play whole pieces in strict time but to improve my internal pacing of long pauses. I started by having the 'nome clicking 8, then 4 then 2 and eventually 1 to the bar, gradually decreasing tempo from 60 to 40 bpm. It helped. OK it's just one self-taught nobody's example of a single instance, but there it is. No-one devised the method for me and maybe with a teacher they would have proposed a more effective approach, but it's all I had at the time. Now, 30 years on I can still count off a minute in my head and be no more than a second or so out at the end - oddly enough if I'm off it's never early!
I'm not trying to dispel your general objection to the traditional beliefs as there was no kick to lock with, we were hardly 'grooving', it was not breakneck tempo and there was no pocket to get lost in, but I still think its a legitimate, albeit isolated, example of a genuine improvement gained.
Michael Schreiber
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Yes, I mixed in the aspect of recording oneself during practice - but that's a separate point. Sorry
No sorries!Yes, I mixed in the aspect of recording oneself during practice - but that's a separate point. Sorry
Just stating from my life experience when you and Aborgman were talking about use of metronome or looped recording. I realize now what I said may have not had much to do with that discussion though
Quinn,
actually most of the software loopers can do many tracks, like 8 stereo loops. My current hardware looper does that as well.
Jeff,
thanks again for this discussion. Let's say you're playing a shuffle/bluesy kind of thing where generally speaking the drummer will play behind the beat. Without a metronome to practice with, how do manage to achieve playing slightly behind the beat and lock in with the drummer then? Yes I understand that the player would use the drummer as the metronome in a live situation, and adjust naturally, well hopefully.
If you went back and forced/quantized all those bass notes back on the beat/bar, it will sound off. Of course unless you do the same to the drum track. Again recording parts it will be really easy to see if you are behind the beat, pushing the beat, or dead nuts on the bar/beat/pulse. And I certainly agree that straight on the beat can be very mechanical and robotic and frankly uninspired sounding.
I guess my point is you can't know you where you're playing without a point of reference. Well unless all you play is Rubato and then time can go anywhere it likes.
Here's another example, you're building a bass, instead of using a ruler, you just do it by eye.
What do you suppose the chances of building a playable bass without some sort of accurate repeatable process?
A point of reference to compare is needed, otherwise none of the hardware will fit.
I hope that made some sense.
Dirk
actually most of the software loopers can do many tracks, like 8 stereo loops. My current hardware looper does that as well.
Jeff,
thanks again for this discussion. Let's say you're playing a shuffle/bluesy kind of thing where generally speaking the drummer will play behind the beat. Without a metronome to practice with, how do manage to achieve playing slightly behind the beat and lock in with the drummer then? Yes I understand that the player would use the drummer as the metronome in a live situation, and adjust naturally, well hopefully.
If you went back and forced/quantized all those bass notes back on the beat/bar, it will sound off. Of course unless you do the same to the drum track. Again recording parts it will be really easy to see if you are behind the beat, pushing the beat, or dead nuts on the bar/beat/pulse. And I certainly agree that straight on the beat can be very mechanical and robotic and frankly uninspired sounding.
I guess my point is you can't know you where you're playing without a point of reference. Well unless all you play is Rubato and then time can go anywhere it likes.
Here's another example, you're building a bass, instead of using a ruler, you just do it by eye.
What do you suppose the chances of building a playable bass without some sort of accurate repeatable process?
A point of reference to compare is needed, otherwise none of the hardware will fit.
I hope that made some sense.
Dirk
This may be a really dumb question, and might miss the point you're making completely, but why can't you just tap your foot while you're playing? That's what I do. While I'm working a song out I'll probably go slowly and actually think "one ee and uh, two ee and uh" and then come in on the "uh" for example. Then gradually start tapping my foot faster till I'm closer to the speed I want to play at while still keeping the feel. I don't quite get why it would help to have a metronome doing that as the drummer won't be playing as precisely as the metronome anyway, and he's the one I need to be in sync with. No point me playing it at a perfect 120bpm if he's playing at 118. All the metronome does for me is stress me out and make me feel like I've failed if I fall behind.
Of course, and, with the certain midi equipment (footswitches, mixers, etc), software loopers can functionally go far beyond anything a standard hardware looper could. For some reason I prefer having a physical pedal at my foot though.
Temporal sense, no matter what it is used for, is the same within the brain.
The ability to accurately count 60 seconds is using the same brain structures, in the same manner, as keeping consistent time when counting music.
The ability to synchronize a button push in time with a metronome is mentally the same process as plucking a note in time with a drummer playing a kick drum.
Exactly! I alway suggest that people tap their foot and subdivide as you state. You are the first person I've read on TB to get this. I am really impressed.
This all sounds correct. I would only add that playing an instrument while representing musical principles on it isn't the same thing.
I've started writing my comment several times. Eventually, I've decided to say this:
You and I have attended/gone through some Academic Education Music School.
We both know there is NO requirement (zero, zilch, nada) of playing ANYTHING along with the metronome/click.
Jeff Berlin has Mastered the Electrical Bass Guitar. His teaching method complies with the Academic Education requirements. It's all about learning and mastering the instrument. The word, Groove does not exist in any Academic Educational manual.
The same thing about Vitamins. I know your answer on Vitamins, you know my answer on Vitamin supplements.
Somebody says, "The vitamins really really helped (are helping) me" - It's me, and I take them on a regular basis.
Somebody says, "It's enough to take just multivitamins" - I, kind of disagree with it.
Somebody says, "Vitamins are important but it's OK just to eat Healthy food and get those vitamins ONLY from food", etc..., but...
You will not find ANYWHERE in the Academic medical books written statement/s that you, as a doctor should treat your pneumonia, stroke, heart attack, etc...patients with Vitamins.
I've been using Metronome/click for decades. I'll will use when I need it, but...
It's not in a Standard Academic education manual.
Did the Metronome/click help me.
I truly believe that the Metronome as a Calibrator helped me to BETTER internalize (!) various subdivisions, various patterns, various fills, various runs, passages, etc...
I do not try to internalize some Abstract Tempo. In my case, the metronome has helped me to achieve DEEPER time and nuanced-based articulation of this or that measure, riff, pattern, etc... which is NOT required in Classical Music/Academic Education.
What's more. The Academic Education helped me to start "specializing" in my narrow vision of my musical idiosyncrasies.
I don't see any issues with Jeff Berlin's solid academic learning of the Instrument - the electric bass guitar.
That solid foundation would help any musician to go this/that/other ways while pursuing their own visions/ideas/etc...
You will not find anywhere in the Academic (musical) education requirement/s to start grooving.
What's more, just because I got some Academic Education, I was able to understand more about why I like/need to use the Metronome.
Any Groove can exist only as some NOTES (Aural notes in my world).
Any Groove has the same standard requirements for any Musical Content - articulation, dynamics, embellishments, etc...
Any Groove in your brain exist as some NOTES with signs of articulation.
I've been playing Music for some time before I've started solidly practicing with the Metronome and became a supporter of using the Metronome for my specific reasons/specific ideas.
As I've said numerous times, the metronome is helping me to Calibrate this or that phrase and better internalize it, remember it with my brain and muscles.
What's more, for me any statement like "Just play along with the metronome" is very NEBULOUS.
Playing somehow along the click is NOT why I use the metronome.
I've just recently listened to a new album (recorded with a click) of one of our respected TB members who is a Metronome supporter, but...
My idea was not used while playing along the click in those recordings.
It's only MY personal opinion about it. It goes NOWHERE.
My simplified statement about any musician's tempo rendition is this:
"The better/the more you Master your instrument, the BETTER your timing is".
In short.
It's all about Mastering the Instrument, and that Academic Education process has a lot to offer.
The BETTER bass master you are, the better your tempo-wise adjustment "mechanism" is.
Please note, that Academic Education does not teach Slap or Tap.
It just provides you with a Solid Foundation to "explore your world" in your life.
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@JeffBerlin - If you did not exist, Sir, Talk Bass would be obliged to invent you. 47 pages! And still I am not certain just how many angels can dance on the ball end of a TI Jazz Flat.
From only MY solely perspective, your statement is correct and also wrong.
If you are playing with a drummer who is NOT a mechanical metronome, then, your most important job is to make those tiny adjustments with your drummer (if needed) in order to obtain or preserve the organic "tightness" of your rhythmic rendition. I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever if we slightly variate our tempo without losing that organic/integral "tightness" of our rhythm section, but...
What to do if you as a musician must record with a click???
I disagree... a solo snare drum can groove.
Well sure... because timing is part of mastering your instrument.
Mastering other aspects of the instrument can make your timing better, because you can concentrate on timing while subconsciously doing the other things. Of course - the same is true of timing. Mastering timing can make other aspects of your playing better because you can concentrate on them while subconsciously taking care of timing.
In my world, in my understanding - any notes played on any drums are NOTES!
I've had a few musician friends who have graduated from the local conservatory majoring in "Percussion instruments."
They were keyboard players (mostly) after the conservatory.
Why?
Because it was easier to obtain a Musical degree, Musical Knowledge (less competition) in the Percussion class.
But anyway - drumming consists of NOTES!
He's playing notes in the most literal sense here. Look inside the tom heads!
In my world, I don't master TIMING!
I master subdivisions, riffs, phrases, motifs, runs, fills, tuttis, passages, etc... on my instrument.
I do not understand "Mastering TIMING".
Does it mean that I must learn to immediately answer you - Here is 126BPM?
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