Jeff Berlin asks - Why Do Some Object to My Educational Views

[JW56789]

Yes! You were taught music and how to represent it on the piano. Bass players don't generally share any of your experience in learning (or as I have learned) and find my views to be antithetical to how the bass is learned today. And they are right.

I have no method! I, or anyone like me (or perhaps you considering your background) could take anyone and in five minutes I would know what they needed to improve. It is a snap and I've done it nearly my entire life as a bass player. Four bars of written music would change one's entire view of how to learn the bass but I know that many people don't believe this. Music is THE shortcut to improving everyone's bass playing if they decide to pay to learn. My wish is to influence people interested in thinking about this that they can save themselves a tone of money and triple their playing if they spent a year doing something on their bass that some bass players haven't done in ten years.

Thanks for answering, JB.

Brother, we ALL have a lot to own . . . . . I've made every mistake in the book, and then they had to start a SECOND book. But with some age, time, and distance, hopefully we all learn and earn some grace.

Although I'm a terribly 'back-slidden' reader and played in nothing but 'head-chart' bands for years, I do know the difference. And while lots of us are perfectly happy to work up to some level of competency and play local gigs, for guys that are playing in more serious situations, I (and Jeff) can absolutely promise you that all of that 'groove, lock up with drummers, modes, feel' BS will absolutely be useless the first time you have a date where you sit down, they throw real charts written in standard notation in front of you and expect you to play it with no more difficulty than reading a newspaper. You won't have to worry about a call-back.

Now not a lot of us are going to face that. But the learning carries over into whatever situation you find yourself.

BTW, I was fortunate to take a lesson with Roy Vogt here in Nashville. Roy is a world-class player and holds the Bass Chair here at Belmont University. My life at the time didn't allow me to go back, but here is what he did with me:

We sat down, I played a few things for him. He decided I could get around on the thing. After showing me a few things and making a few suggestions, he handed me a stack of sheet music to practice and learn, Bach Cello transcriptions. No mention of 'the groove' . . . . . . so I'd certainly say you're not alone out there, Jeff !

All the Best !

 

[Florinda4]

Interesting thread for a late evening, thanks Jeff!

Actually, I happen to agree with some of your basic ideas distilled from the avalanche of verbiage above, but for me the best teachers of any non-verbal art use the fewest words possible to avoid strangling the desired result.

Ironically, seems to me teaching music should be like my favorite bass lines: clear and to the point (admittedly, easier said than done) and never overplayed.

 

[flojob]

Select twenty people from music history that play different instruments and who come from any period in music history. You will find that they are either self taught players (or in charge of what they decided to learn with) or they were only taught how to play or compose by practicing academic written music assigned to them by their teachers. If your research verifies my belief, then it is a safe bet that bass education has greatly shifted away from teaching via the only proven academic method of teaching that every trained musician learned by, exceptions aside.

Try out this little examination and let me know who you find in music history who weren't self taught or were't only taught musical content. List your discoveries here and we can chat about this.

I've seen this mentioned a few times, and I feel like I'm missing the point.
Either a musician is self taught, or someone taught them. Thats how mankind has learned everything from living to dying. What is the challenge that people have been issuing to that concept, and also how does that tie in to the overall view?
I take the point of your view to be that guided instruction involving written material is the most effective way to teach, or the most effective way to learn. And I feel like there is a question about why won't folks pay for it. If that is wrong, stop reading now haha
Does the instruction have to be guided AND written, or can they be separated?
If they can be,
Does the material have to be written, and from some accepted Canon of work?
I ask because, while I can see the advantage of learning written examples that have the attributes that a person needs to learn (meter, division, pitch, harmony), it may be that the written medium is just as effective as another, such as a visual one. Seeing someone perform a piece can relate just as much information as reading one. I present this point because you have mentioned that the performance of music is more important in learning than focusing on what I would call rudimentary techniques, such as studying meter with a metronome, or studying pitch in the context of scales.

Does the study have to be guided?
In some ways, I think this should be more examined to illicit benefits that may not be apparent. Guiding, in an academic context, offers the idea that a student is being lead to beneficial material, but doesn't allow the experience of the teacher to contribute in a way that surely has just as much value, and that is feedback.
I raise this point because, as I have read (and certainly my misinterpretation, but one that can be made, to no service of the point), the focus has been on the manner of study, with a comparable passing mention on the mechanics of performace. That is a benefit that an experienced teacher provides, and one that is overlooked in the discussion. If learning is successful after "play this piece correctly", how much more, then, if "am I playing this correctly?" is possible? Much more, and in fact, can only be accomplished when working under instruction, wether paid or not.
If the concept of guided instruction through written works can not be cleaved (that's right. I used the word cleaved.), then that previous point requires even more emphasis when exploring the issue of compensation.
Simply put (because I just used the word cleaved y'all. It's time to quit writing), that is the only reason to pay for instruction. Written works are available without an intermediary, as are videos of performances of those pieces. The ease of access and the plethora (seriously. Someone take this phone away now.) of examples AND instruction, the only reason to pay is for your experience, and the ability to get feedback.
I could go on, but thank God I won't haha sorry y'all. I get wordy when I'm tired.

 

[flojob]

Wait. I forgot the point of the thread. Which is "why do folks not like what I'm saying?"
I think it's because there is more to the thoughts on both sides, and because it's not being said, it gives a different impression.
Jeff- I have this way that I can teach. It's super good and will make you much better at a much faster pace...if you want to get this result.
Other folks- Wut. I can groove, read music, and I have a passion for playing...i like the results I'm getting doing it another way. Plus I love metronomes, Jeff! What did they ever do to you?!
It's just a consequence of individuality that some people don't have a desire to study in a way that promotes the skill set which professional players need to have a career doing things at Jeff's level.
Anybody's system of learning is only valuable if it teaches things you want to learn. If you don't, then the opinions about it's validity or superiority have no application to you at all.

 

[aborgman]

"Why Do Some Object to My Educational Views "

Because you make absolutist, objective, truth claims about things which are subjective opinion.

 

[aborgman]

My comments are based on how everyone was taught since written music became organized. Everything that I share about learning is based on music history and how everyone learned how to play for centuries. There are only two ways to learn: 1. Being self taught (or entirely having the last word about what you wish to practice and learn from) and 2. Being taught musical content to practice. I don't believe that people will find a third option.

3. Being taught musical content and non-musical technical exercises to practice.

You can learn to play an instrument well with only musical content to practice. You can't learn to play an instrument well without musical content to practice.

...but for many people, they can learn to play an instrument well more efficiently being taught musical content and non-musical technical exercises to practice.

 

[Ant Illington]

Appeals to authority don’t work with a lot of people because they are fallacies- they don’t help to prove a point. Go back to the 18th century. Have any physician name 20 people from medical history who didn’t solve certain diseases by bleeding people. The practice of bleeding probably far, far exceeds the length of time that academic music teaching has been around. It was the best method they had and it seem to provide the best results. That’s why it waters down your ideas whenever you try to use an appeal to authority- just because something has seemed to work for a duration of time does not mean something else won’t work or work better.

Here’s a question that would likely help people move to your views: are you willing to change every view you hold about music education?

One must be careful in presenting one's arguments. Using words like "every," "all," "never" and the like are absolutes, as you know. People wish Jeff might lighten up on them even when making the points of his which may qualify as validly absolute. You just used "every" in presenting your essential question.

Is Jeff Berlin really asking people to change every view that they hold? No, he is not. Now let's write 500 replies on Bryan Tyler's absolutism.... you get the point. You guys split far too many hairs w Jeff because you all (you guys who split hairs or even mischaracterize his sentiments) are all too frequently incapable of shooting valid holes in the real issues he presents (if there are any, I don't know; I'm just looking at things equally). COPOUT. Play more bass, argue with JB far less until you have more credibility. By the way, I own NOTHING that JB sells/sold. I have no horse in this race except reasonableness, logic and virtue (his). It's quite discomforting that a representative of TB itself can be found swimming in the swamp he is charged with monitoring against and, indeed, misconstruing another member's (much superior musician/educator member, I might add) words. Go ahead, ban me if it is a TOS violation to show that a moderator is part of the swamp by virtue of my showing that said moderator has misconstrued/misrepresented another member's words.

By the way, to further show your mischaracterization.... Jeff is asking people to look at his views on BASS education, not MUSIC education, the latter of which YOU erroneously used in presenting your question which was already demonstrated to be a fallacy in a previous paragraph herein. Damn, it is easy and fun (NOT!) to nitpick, misconstrue or even misquote people.

Jeff has clearly stated that he is pushing to make bass education more like education on other instruments. He is NOT trying to change music education as you state/imply with your question.

It is very hard to argue with people who can't stay on task and who bend others' concepts for their own convenience; therefore, my lack of reply to any counter is not in any way my acknowledgement that you didn't do the BS moves that I am writing about here. It will be a sad state of affairs if you choose to ban me for calling you out on your absolute mishandling of this in presenting a totally bogus question that Jeff never asked nor implied. Shameful of you, a mod, to do that to him, to the members of TB. Disgusting.

 

[Marial]

I sincerely appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for sharing. I just thought to ask that if so many people criticize so much on the internet, often using language and comments that I would never use, can you share why it is not acceptable for me to offer my thoughts and comment what I view as a flawed educational bass system and advise that there are better ways to learn if one is seeking this for themselves?

While I am no hero, people have written me stating that my thoughts alone, literally without anyone else's input got some people to turn away from today's non-music centered bass instruction and inspired them to go into the learning of music itself. Because I seem to be fairly alone in affecting a directional change in learning by pointing people toward learning the true elements of the language of music, isn't this a good thing?

You asked the question, 'Why do some object to my educational views?'

I answered your question. You present those views in an antagonistic fashion and as a virtuous opposition to charlantanry. It is not attractive and does, as another put it, obscure the value of your educational ideas. There is a component of aggrieved self-aggrandizement to it as well, evident in the post I quoted above, that is also unattractive.

In simpler terms, honey catches more flies than vinegar. Your ideas make sense to me, to a certain extent, but your absolutism and inability to keep from ceaselessly framing your ideas in an oppositional/critical fashion disincline me from investigating further. There are other educators who focus 'on musical content', this is not solely your domain.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

One must be careful in presenting one's arguments. Using words like "every," "all," "never" and the like are absolutes, as you know. People wish Jeff might lighten up on them even when making the points of his which may qualify as validly absolute. You just used "every" in presenting your essential question.

Is Jeff Berlin really asking people to change every view that they hold? No, he is not. Now let's write 500 replies on Bryan Tyler's absolutism.... you get the point. You guys split far too many hairs w Jeff because you all (you guys who split hairs or even mischaracterize his sentiments) are all too frequently incapable of shooting valid holes in the real issues he presents (if there are any, I don't know; I'm just looking at things equally). COPOUT. Play more bass, argue with JB far less until you have more credibility. By the way, I own NOTHING that JB sells/sold. I have no horse in this race except reasonableness, logic and virtue (his). It's quite discomforting that a representative of TB itself can be found swimming in the swamp he is charged with monitoring against and, indeed, misconstruing another member's (much superior musician/educator member, I might add) words. Go ahead, ban me if it is a TOS violation to show that a moderator is part of the swamp by virtue of my showing that said moderator has misconstrued/misrepresented another member's words.

By the way, to further show your mischaracterization.... Jeff is asking people to look at his views on BASS education, not MUSIC education, the latter of which YOU erroneously used in presenting your question which was already demonstrated to be a fallacy in a previous paragraph herein. Damn, it is easy and fun (NOT!) to nitpick, misconstrue or even misquote people.

Jeff has clearly stated that he is pushing to make bass education more like education on other instruments. He is NOT trying to change music education as you state/imply with your question.

It is very hard to argue with people who can't stay on task and who bend others' concepts for their own convenience; therefore, my lack of reply to any counter is not in any way my acknowledgement that you didn't do the BS moves that I am writing about here. It will be a sad state of affairs if you choose to ban me for calling you out on your absolute mishandling of this in presenting a totally bogus question that Jeff never asked nor implied. Shameful of you, a mod, to do that to him, to the members of TB. Disgusting.

Yes, that’s all very cute. In the meantime, I did not imply that he was trying to change everyone’s opinions on all points of music education, or bass education. I’m asking an entirely different question. We know he sees the flaws in bass education in its current form and wishes it was more akin to traditional music education. The question is if he would be willing to change his beliefs in the current musical education system that he has found, and rightfully so, validity in. This is a cornerstone of good science. Believe in what has been shown to be the most accurate information, and be willing to completely eschew it if better or different information is found. I believe that Jeff would be willing to do this if presented with enough contrary evidence, but this point doesn’t seem to come across with the “this way is right/that way it’s wrong” presentation. That’s why I said he could likely bring more people over to his side of thinking if he expressed this honestly and not with any form of sarcasm more often. There’s a difference between “I could be wrong on this but based on everything we’ve seen it appears this way will give the most positive results” and “how is the whole bass community going to react when they discover that every teacher that they depended on for their musical reclamation was wrong” and the wrong presentation can turn people off. I’ve actually seen Jeff do the former a couple times recently which is a big step up from behavior years ago and it’s a very positive change, but the inclusion of comments like the second part will still make people object. You can have a big bowl of delicious soup but if there is one fly in the corner, it can make people not want to eat it.

I bring these items up for two reasons:
1. Jeff asked us, and
2. Jeff is without a doubt one the the very top electric bassists who has ever lived and from all accounts one of the greatest bass educators as well, and I think his ideas on changing bass education will go much farther if the controversial aspects can be forgone as then only the important positive aspects that he has endless amounts of to teach will remain.

And finally, in addition to Jeff asking us, this forum always has and always will be open to all discussions for all members. If you don’t like the fact that people that are not on Jeff’s caliber of playing or music education can comment, which would limit responses to a handful of people, then you’ll need to leave the thread as they are all welcome and telling them they aren’t won’t be tolerated.

 

[JeffBerlin]

You asked the question, 'Why do some object to my educational views?'

I answered your question. You present those views in an antagonistic fashion and as a virtuous opposition to charlantanry. It is not attractive and does, as another put it, obscure the value of your educational ideas. There is a component of aggrieved self-aggrandizement to it as well, evident in the post I quoted above, that is also unattractive.

In simpler terms, honey catches more flies than vinegar. Your ideas make sense to me, to a certain extent, but your absolutism and inability to keep from ceaselessly framing your ideas in an oppositional/critical fashion disincline me from investigating further. There are other educators who focus 'on musical content', this is not solely your domain.

I appreciate your comment. I would add that it isn't either honey nor vinegar to state the condition of a functioning system. Where is it self aggrandizing to state to some people that might not be aware of it that a system of learning that they trust is flawed? I don't say that you are incorrect by your comments. But I do say that it appears to me that you and some others are more concerned with my perceived manner of writing than what I say. Others don't do this which shows me that they aren't as quick to find offense in my thoughts and how I state them.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Interesting thread for a late evening, thanks Jeff!

Actually, I happen to agree with some of your basic ideas distilled from the avalanche of verbiage above, but for me the best teachers of any non-verbal art use the fewest words possible to avoid strangling the desired result.

Interesting comment, and I am glad that my points make some sense for you But, I don't know where it has ever been said or defined that the best teachers use the fewest words. This is new to me.

 

[Marial]

I appreciate your comment. I would add that it isn't either honey nor vinegar to state the condition of a functioning system. Where is it self aggrandizing to state to some people that might not be aware of it that a system of learning that they trust is flawed? I don't say that you are incorrect by your comments. But I do say that it appears to me that you and some others are more concerned with my perceived manner of writing than what I say. Others don't do this which shows me that they aren't as quick to find offense in my thoughts and how I state them.

Again, your underlying message is not the main issue. Whether or not you believe that and whether you choose to make any adjustments is not my problem, I have simply responded to your question.

 

[JeffBerlin]

We had a fairly wide variety of teaching styles and methods of learning at art school. But one thing that was consistent was they never criticized a different teacher’s methods. Even the most intimidating and nearly dogmatic professor we had, when telling him that another teacher taught us to do something in a completely different manner told us to always do what the teacher told them to do when in their class

This is fair. Just realize that I never criticized any individual teacher either. And it is possible (since I have no idea) that the teachers in art schools worldwide while being of a variety of approaches, are (nearly all) qualified to teach the mechanical elements that all artists require to know before the word "art" applies to their craft. This is why my comments are specific; they relate to an industry where music is taught. More specific than that, they relate to an industry where music is taught to bass players. And to even make my comments clearer, my comments are regarding an industry where music is taught to electric bass players by a healthy number of self taught bass players that do not know how music works off of their instruments and by teachers who also received limited bass instruction while earning a B.A. in music and deciding that music alone is not important enough a subject to teach exclusively to their students.

With this comment, as unbecoming as some might see it, other than the rarified outlets of learning where a bass teach makes the study of musical content the mandatory lesson offering, I would invite you and others to show me where I am wrong. Because, unless I made a mistake, being taught bass isn't even in the same area of competency as being taught how to paint.

 

[Gorn]

This is fair. Just realize that I never criticized any individual teacher either. And it is possible (since I have no idea) that the teachers in art schools worldwide while being of a variety of approaches, are (nearly all) qualified to teach the mechanical elements that all artists require to know before the word "art" applies to their craft.

Withouth the mechanical elements that you call requirements, an artist isn't making art?

 

[mobdirt]

it is not dynamic in the sense time is not a "player" in the art unless its performance art
there is a major difference

 

[JeffBerlin]

I don't think you are alone, Jeff. I think there are plenty of people who agree with what you say and that maybe the reason they choose self-taught over formal bass education is that they find/have found the formal education on offer elsewhere to be unsatisfactory in the same way you do.

It could be! I am glad to hear this.

I started this thread to ask why some object to my educational views about education As far as I remember, not one person responded by mentioning that they saw my views about learning how to play the bass as flawed nor specified why. No one even mentioned the word "music" or "practice" in the same sentence. This seems to support a theory that I have had about some bass players for a while; they don't know how important music is to learning how to play the bass because the industry that they seem to protect isn't teaching it to them, exceptions aside.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Interesting comment, and I am glad that my points make some sense for you But, I don't know where it has ever been said or defined that the best teachers use the fewest words. This is new to me.

Yeah, you absolutely talk too much. Whatever useful points or good ideas you might have generally gets lost in verbose and overstated non-points.

Honestly, up until now, after 3 threads and literally hundreds of posts did I even start to understand what point you were making in the first place. Try just saying "ok" once in awhile. Or just don't say anything when you have that impulse to deliver a huge explanation. Everything doesn't need that, you know. Just try a simple delivery. What a novel idea, huh?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Wait. I forgot the point of the thread. Which is "why do folks not like what I'm saying?"
I think it's because there is more to the thoughts on both sides, and because it's not being said, it gives a different impression.
Jeff- I have this way that I can teach. It's super good and will make you much better at a much faster pace...if you want to get this result.
Other folks- Wut. I can groove, read music, and I have a passion for playing...i like the results I'm getting doing it another way. Plus I love metronomes, Jeff! What did they ever do to you?!
It's just a consequence of individuality that some people don't have a desire to study in a way that promotes the skill set which professional players need to have a career doing things at Jeff's level.
Anybody's system of learning is only valuable if it teaches things you want to learn. If you don't, then the opinions about it's validity or superiority have no application to you at all.

Great thoughts. I would add that I have no truck with anyone that has no interest in paying to learn. This is a personal choice and what or how one teaches themselves or what one embraces in their musical lives deserves no comment. My views begin and end when a check is written and handed to someone who has just been financed to improve my musical thing.. There, the whole reality changes. This is what I criticize, the bass education "industry."

 

[JeffBerlin]

Yeah, you absolutely talk too much. Whatever useful points or good ideas you might have generally gets lost in verbose and overstated non-points.

Honestly, up until now, after 3 threads and literally hundreds of posts did I even start to understand what point you were making in the first place. Try just saying "ok" once in awhile. Or just don't say anything when you have that impulse to deliver a huge explanation. Everything doesn't need that, you know. Just try a simple delivery. What a novel idea, huh?

Well, there are 40 pages of one thread and we are up to three in this one. You may feel that I talk a lot, but, I'm not the one filling all these pages.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well, there are 40 pages of one thread and we are up to three in this one. You may feel that I talk a lot, but, I'm not the one filling all these pages.

Chum draws sharks...