Jeff Berlin asks - Why Do Some Object to My Educational Views

[JeffBerlin]

This is actually not the case in two separate ways. There’s actually very few schools that focus on the classical mechanical elements that go into creating representational art. It may have changed greatly since I graduated, but at the time I chose my college it was one of I believe 3 or 4 colleges in the country that focused on classical figurative training. Drawing took a major backseat for about a century- lots and lots of art teachers are probably worse draftsmen than you.

The other part is that you really don’t need any technical mechanical elements to create art. Children for example are some of the greatest artists. You hasve kids, as do I and most others. Nearly every parent has been given a drawing that made them tear up. With no training they can still find a way to pass on real emotional expression. You don’t learn the technique in order to be able to make art- you learn the technique in order to better express yourself.



You have made references to the teaching of lots of other professions when comparing them to the teaching of bass, so I simply use painting as an example because I’ve found it far more similar from my own experience. As I was getting my BFA I was teaching myself to play bass; as I had no formal training in the latter, I found applying a lot of the lessons I learned in art worked well (my senior yearbook photo was of me playing my bass )

There are some notable differences though. I know you advise a strict separation of learning the instrument and context/the creation of “art”- this is not the case at all with either classical or modern visual art. It may be a difference due to the ephemeral nature of music. I agree that you should set your mind to the fact that you will simply not be good for years while learning how to paint or draw. However, even when doing a completely technical attempt at drawing a portrait that no one but you will see, the image will still be there in front of you and convey an expression. Very few subjects convey no emotion or context at all-even a still life can look “sad” even if the intent to convey emotion was not there when creating the piece. The expression of “art” is inexorably connected to the technical aspect of learning or creating it, so context is taught right along with technique.

Music by its nature however can be gone the moment after it’s been played if you’re not recording it. This is particularly true for bass as we don’t tend play large ringing chords that can express an emotion on their own. A lot of people though also hear the word “music” and find the expression aspect of it inexorably linked to the technical aspect, just as “art” is. Do you think that maybe “Instrumentation education” would be a more fitting title for the music education you propose, as it immediately cuts out the expression/performance aspects that you believe should come later?

Oh, one can read between the lines if they wish. But no one can state that my thinking is motivated by focusing on one or two teachers, schools, websites or bass players. I've use the term "worldwide bass system" and chose it carefully. I've been saying this shtick for years. I frankly don't feel responsible if people decide to fill the gaps with specific conclusions that I wish to avoid. And I would remind you that I barely ever mention the word "art" as a part of my views about learning. Art and learning don't belong together for the most part.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Yes, but in what proportion? This is an extract from an introductory book on cello thumb position...
View attachment 2869890
It is easy to distinguish the technical from musical content, and the average ratio throughout is about 5:1. It might be reasonable to assume a student practice ratio of 50:1 (each piece 10 times for one run of the scale). Unfortunately most bass literature contains almost exclusively just the technical bit, so one could draw an inference that 98% of the practice resource is missing.
YMMV.

This is what a teacher is for! They should know these things.

 

[JeffBerlin]

nutdog asks, why does Jeff Berlin always start threads in the third person?

View attachment 2869705

Now I understand! I use my name to identify who is writing the post! I didn't realize that this, too, is offensive to some people.

 

[hrodbert696]

It may be an advantage or a disadvantage, but I only hear the controversy over Mr. Berlin's approach at second-hand and don't really have any skin in the game. But from what I overhear, it may (or may not) be helpful to reflect on the teaching enterprise more generally.

I teach medieval history at the college level. A while back, there was some lamentation over the lack of a standardized test that could be given to all history majors before graduating to make sure they had all attained some hypothetical threshold of competence. One of my colleagues quipped, "Sure, we'll design a standardized test - as soon as they start sending us standardized students."

History does, of course, rest on facts. Things happened. More importantly, it rests on certain disciplines - the means of interpreting historical documents in order to determine what the facts were. (Indeed, the real "Facts" are not the events themselves but the evidence they left, that we have to work with. The only "fact" I really know is that there are words on a page in front of me. How they got there and what they mean pushes me immediately into the interpretive process). But that only gets you to a certain, relatively sterile point. History is also one of the humanities; that is, it sets out not only to determine certain facts, but to reflect on and express what those facts reveal about humanity, what underlying social and cultural dynamics drove the events and decisions in people's experience.

Now, to tie this to my colleague's comment about standardized students - each student tackles this continuum from evidence to event to meaning in their own way. To be sure, there ARE facts that, sooner or later, a competent student ought to know if he's going to get anywhere. There are canons of textual interpretation they should know and fallacies they should be able to avoid. A student in a medieval history class won't reach very high levels of sophistication without picking up along the way that Charlemagne was the first Emperor of the Romans in the West since Romulus Augustulus and that he received the title from the pope on Christmas Day, 800 AD, or that William the Conqueror took over England in 1066 or that Pope Urban II launched the First Crusade at the Council of Clermont in 1095.

On the other hand, how detailed and elaborate a body of "facts" the student needs to master depends very much on what they intend to do with them. I have a PhD in medieval history and I couldn't tell you the exact years of Richard the Lionheart's reign off the top of my head - roughly 1180s to 1190s, but that's as close as I personally need to know for what I DO in medieval history. And each student will process things differently. In German graduate school, for example, they START with documents; very specific, concrete, local texts recording specific local events. Only from that basis do they broaden out to take in the bigger picture of medieval Europe as a whole. American higher education, on the other hand, tends to start with sweeping overviews of the whole era, and then gradually encourage students to focus their attention on more and more specific things. Some students love accumulating lists of detailed trivia, others begin from loose generalities. You won't make all of them successful by only rewarding one approach and dismissing the others.

So to bring this around to Mr. Berlin's original question; there's the possibility, as some have suggested, that objectors to his method (which I have heard he stresses is "fact based" and requires adherence to the authority of the instructor) may simply be too sloppy or lazy to appreciate what's involved; but let's set that aside for a moment and give his detractors the benefit of the doubt. On the analogy of what I know about history teaching, I can well see that some may be concerned that his is a method which is too rigid, that cultivates one kind of learning but fails to acknowledge others. In history, sooner or later, to get very far, a student needs to both master a set of disciplinary skills, a body of factual knowledge, and the subtler and more subjective art of humanistic reflection. But different students will enter that continuum of learning from different angles, coming into some aspects sooner and others later, and not all in the same sequence. I'm not a music teacher, but perhaps the same is true in music pedagogy.

 

[JeffBerlin]

So to bring this around to Mr. Berlin's original question; there's the possibility, as some have suggested, that objectors to his method (which I have heard he stresses is "fact based" and requires adherence to the authority of the instructor) may simply be too sloppy or lazy to appreciate what's involved; but let's set that aside for a moment and give his detractors the benefit of the doubt. On the analogy of what I know about history teaching, I can well see that some may be concerned that his is a method which is too rigid, that cultivates one kind of learning but fails to acknowledge others. In history, sooner or later, to get very far, a student needs to both master a set of disciplinary skills, a body of factual knowledge, and the subtler and more subjective art of humanistic reflection. But different students will enter that continuum of learning from different angles, coming into some aspects sooner and others later, and not all in the same sequence. I'm not a music teacher, but perhaps the same is true in music pedagogy.

Yours is one of the most well thought out posts I've read here on TB. Thank you for sharing such a marvelous thought provoking essay.

Bass players that decide what they want to study want their lessons to line up with the preferred style of music they are into. By doing this, many have stopped their own musical improvement because you aren't learning in ways that can get you to figure out any song in any style once you have improved your bass playing. This message is not well accepted among some bass players.

One of the biggest oversights that some bass players have is that they have rarely, if ever, gone far enough "to the left" to the beginning of learning to where everyone who plays a bass has the identical same musical needs. Before people can play with ability or skill, they are trying to groove or lock with drummers, topics that never were discussed during the period of music where the music industry was vibrant with players. Some people are angered by my comments. I still learn from these people trying to find a more moderate way to converse, something that I appreciate. But I have noticed that there are way more people more angry with my perceived manner of writing than they are with paying money to learn how to slap. Priorities seem backward here and because I try to make clear that there is a solution for accepting a low standard of bass playing, my suggesting that a low standard even exists is an insult.

But, I also have had many more people on TB that seem to follow the gist of my views. This is encouraging. It tells me that something might be changing in how learning the bass is perceived, not performing it (which is none of my business.) Whatever one choose as a musician requires no comment or criticism. To end, since being back on TB, I learned that criticizing the bass educational system is a worse action of behavior than paying to be taught how to play that has alittle chance in fulfilling its promise.

 

[nutdog]

Now I understand! I use my name to identify who is writing the post! I didn't realize that this, too, is offensive to some people.

nudog is not offended, just curious. Your username is right there with every post so it's redundant, and funny, reminds me of that Seinfeld episode with "the Jimmy".

The nutdog wishes Jeff Berlin all the best.

 

[JeffBerlin]

nudog is not offended, just curious. Your username is right there with every post so it's redundant, and funny, reminds me of that Seinfeld episode with "the Jimmy".

The nutdog wishes Jeff Berlin all the best.

I never thought of that! Well, I though that I would just make clear who wrote the post and since I am new to TB, it didn't seem a big deal if I announce that I had a thread to share and to let people know who was posting it. Now that you advised me of this, I'll avoid putting my name first in the thread title anymore.Thank you again!

 

[SteveCS]

I'm originally an upright player - my instruction was generally about 1:1 between Simandl book 1 (basically all technique) and "music"

My wife is a percussionist - her experience as a student was more like 2 or 3:1 in favor of technique.

My oldest son is a trumpet player - his lessons are probably 3:1 in favor of music over technique.

My youngest son plays piano - and every week he is assigned a music selection, a technique selection, and a theory selection.

My daughter is a cellist (and section leader in a county orchestra) and her
practice is probably about 85% music and 15% pure technical or theory. I don't recall it being very much different when she started out other than the more rudimentary nature of the music.

Obviously different strokes and all that, but when I compare my daughter's learning materials and her teacher's methods with the electric bass books I have from years gone by, the musical content element (in most) is all but absent. On that basis alone, whether one works through those books on ones own or under the hand of a teacher or institution, I have to agree with @JeffBerlin that for some strange reason bass education is not consistent with that of other instruments and that this must have a detrimental effect on bass playing overall.

 

[JeffBerlin]

My daughter is a cellist (and section leader in a county orchestra) and her
practice is probably about 85% music and 15% pure technical or theory. I don't recall it being very much different when she started out other than the more rudimentary nature of the music.

Obviously different strokes and all that, but when I compare my daughter's learning materials and her teacher's methods with the electric bass books I have from years gone by, the musical content element (in most) is all but absent. On that basis alone, whether one works through those books on ones own or under the hand of a teacher or institution, I have to agree with @JeffBerlin that for some strange reason bass education is not consistent with that of other instruments and that this must have a detrimental effect on bass playing overall.

It is becoming more and more apparent which might mean that a positive change in how people are taught could become commonplace. How marvelous this would be!
I should mention your comment regarding "different strokes." I know that you were being agreeable by saying this. I just thought to use this comment and state that in being taught how to play, "different strokes" doesn't work and even is a part of what has made bass education so suspect; teachers are perfectly willing to give students what they want. I'm not like this> I prefer to give students what they need. If I REALLY know how to teach, then it is (sort of) my way or (sort of) the highway. I don't wish to throw people into basic training. But a little regimented and perfect musical instruction never hurt anyone. Bass players just think that this approach might not apply to their musical thing. But, it does, totally and completely! In person, I can prove this!

 

[Ant Illington]

I never thought of that! Well, I though that I would just make clear who wrote the post and since I am new to TB, it didn't seem a big deal if I announce that I had a thread to share and to let people know who was posting it. Now that you advised me of this, I'll avoid putting my name first in the thread title anymore.Thank you again!

Ant strongly disagrees with this plan of yours. We understood why you post your name in title. Please continue with it, your fans certainly appreciate it.

 

[Ant Illington]

Yours is one of the most well thought out posts I've read here on TB. Thank you for sharing such a marvelous thought provoking essay.

Bass players that decide what they want to study want their lessons to line up with the preferred style of music they are into. By doing this, many have stopped their own musical improvement because you aren't learning in ways that can get you to figure out any song in any style once you have improved your bass playing. This message is not well accepted among some bass players.

One of the biggest oversights that some bass players have is that they have rarely, if ever, gone far enough "to the left" to the beginning of learning to where everyone who plays a bass has the identical same musical needs. Before people can play with ability or skill, they are trying to groove or lock with drummers, topics that never were discussed during the period of music where the music industry was vibrant with players. Some people are angered by my comments. I still learn from these people trying to find a more moderate way to converse, something that I appreciate. But I have noticed that there are way more people more angry with my perceived manner of writing than they are with paying money to learn how to slap. Priorities seem backward here and because I try to make clear that there is a solution for accepting a low standard of bass playing, my suggesting that a low standard even exists is an insult.

But, I also have had many more people on TB that seem to follow the gist of my views. This is encouraging. It tells me that something might be changing in how learning the bass is perceived, not performing it (which is none of my business.) Whatever one choose as a musician requires no comment or criticism. To end, since being back on TB, I learned that criticizing the bass educational system is a worse action of behavior than paying to be taught how to play that has alittle chance in fulfilling its promise.

Nailed it again. To the new student who just wants to rock or slap or whatever, putting on hold for a few months the learning of songs, slap and modes, etc seems an eternity. "Chicks and cool musicians like guitarists dont want to hear me play Bach Cello Suites-sounding stuff" says the rather infantile brain. It's understandable to want to learn pop songs and slap soon but it's a trap (for anybody who doesn't have a naturally incredible ear). The sharpened mind can acknowledge that it will pay dividends down the road if one puts immediate gratification on hold for a bit. Almost the entire educational world puts immediate gratification on hold while principles are learned.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Found this book stashed away. Kinda puts a lot of what is being said into perspective for me.

 

[Acoustic356]

When I was in college, I failed Calculus the first time. Why? Because the professor gave me what he thought I needed.

For all the office visits, practice exercises, I could not grasp his traditional methods.

When I took Calc the 2nd semester with a different instructor, he told a story that unlocked the mysteries in 20 minutes that made the lightbulb go off. Calculus through Differential Equations was easy from that point.

What I learned from this was something that I applied to all of my academic learning from that point on.

The end result may be the same, but the method might be different.

For all my mathematics based courses - statistics, physics, etc. I would always head to the library and look through various sources to find one that helped me understand the material.

I am the ultimate source of understanding what I need to progress nice the problem has been identified.

The same applies when learning music. I have had many teachers over the past 3 years that I have played bass.

I have progressed in theory, technique, and now have started reading based upon finding what resonates with me instead of sticking to a method that may be good, but may not resonate with my process.

 

[thedukeofno]

As to the question originally posted by Jeff, the most obvious answer is “who cares?”. You can’t please / convince everyone. Some folks love to argue, some folks are coming to this thread to see if the past is repeated, some folks don’t want to hear that there might be a better way to improve on the instrument, or they learned (or are learning) via a method that is not the most efficient or effective.

I believe that the approach Jeff endorses (it’s not “Jeff’s approach”... it’s been around for centuries)... a formal, disciplined approach centered in music reading, theory, and understanding of harmonic concepts, will in the long run produce the best results. To me, there is no question of this fact, but I can neither 1) prove it or 2) convince everyone here of it. Neither can anyone else. And, there is some substantial up-front work required, and it simply doesn’t hold the immediate appeal of “Learn to play like Jaco with these right hand underwater string-crossing exercises!!”.

I also understand why someone who plays in the local watering hole with his/her buddies doesn’t feel the need to devote the time required for a formal, reading-based approach.

I can’t understand why people harp on Jeff for his metronome position. Personally, I feel there are far more instances in my personal learning where I would not use a metronome. I have one I purchased from Sam Ash in 1990. I’d could say I never use the thing, except for the fact that it produces A440, thus I use it for tuning.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

People that don't pay to learn how to play are except from any comment about learning that I make because they aren't seeking musical improvement to where what I say has to be embraced

I disagree with this statement. I learned from my father who had his master's in music, studied to be a symphony conductor, and was a high school band director. He also played trombone and upright bass professionally. Although I didn't "pay" to learn. I'm sure I got as good an education in music as you can get. I was taught piano by my mother, also a music grad, grade school music teacher, opera singer, and piano teacher. My dad taught me trombone, bass, and theory.
I had the techniques and habits drilled in to me from an early age.
I also think that anyone truly dedicated to learning music and an instrument can accomplish it without paying another person to show him how.
I would submit your opinion is self serving because it is a source of income for you.
Also, the word in that sentence should be exempt, not except.
Maybe you should pay for some English lessons.

 

[5thsand4ths]

This is an "Ask Jeff Berlin" forum and no question he has been asked has been responded to. Why isnt this forum simply called "Listen to Jeff Berlin rant about Bass education for yet another decade"?

 

[thedukeofno]

I disagree with this statement. I learned from my father who had his master's in music, studied to be a symphony conductor, and was a high school band director. He also played trombone and upright bass professionally. Although I didn't "pay" to learn. I'm sure I got as good an education in music as you can get. I was taught piano by my mother, also a music grad, grade school music teacher, opera singer, and piano teacher. My dad taught me trombone, bass, and theory.
I had the techniques and habits drilled in to me from an early age.
I also think that anyone truly dedicated to learning music and an instrument can accomplish it without paying another person to show him how.
I would submit your opinion is self serving because it is a source of income for you.
Also, the word in that sentence should be exempt, not except.
Maybe you should pay for some English lessons.

So, can you understand how your situation is unique, and is not really repeatable?

 

[Double E]

and since I am new to TB

But you are not new here, you've had thousands of posts here years ago and you were eventually banned for over zealously defending yourself.

I am a fan of your stuff and was dissappointed that your previous time here ended in turmoil but I am surprised at your feigned ignorance on how this forum works. Not to mention that you seem to be intent on just re-stirring the old pot instead of moving forward.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

So, can you understand how your situation is unique, and is not really repeatable?

My situation may be unusual, but not entirely unique. His statement was an absolute. All I'm saying is, it is possible to do it without paying.

 

[consectaneus]

This is an "Ask Jeff Berlin" forum and no question he has been asked has been responded to. Why isnt this forum simply called "Listen to Jeff Berlin rant about Bass education for yet another decade"?

As someone who asked one of those questions (with as yet no reply forthcoming) I am forming some thoughts on this. Jeff posted that he noticed that few people are asking questions, so I asked one. I feel a little foolish not realizing that the questions he seems to have in mind are those that fall within the parameters of questioning HIS thesis. In this way, he controls the discourse.

Now, there is nothing wrong with this. It's likely he never came to Talkbass with the intention of having his own AMA thread. That he came with an agenda to solicit responses to his theories on bass education. Again, this is fine as long as people realize this and want to participate with this understanding. I find myself less and less interested in doing so.