Jeff Berlin asks - Why Do Some Object to My Educational Views

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, if I start your courses, how important is it to be plugged in? I have a Rogue Beatle bass that's a 31" scale. If I later go to 34" bass, will that be a big adjustment? Thanks in advance.

I suppose that you could do without amplification. I always felt that the less work your hands had to do to play the bass, the less pain or overuse that your hand muscles would take place. If you have an amp, I would plug it in. If you don't then don't pluck the strings too hard.

A 31 inch scale bass would accommodate what I prepared for people to practice. If you went to a 34 inch scale, it will only add more frets to navigate as you ascend and descend the neck in the chord tone lessons that I wrote. But, I feel that you will be fine with the shorter scale.

 

[bench]

I completely agree with

Jeff, I respect and believe in your position on music education. I do think you could stand to use a considerable amount more of brevity in your responses to your detractors. In most cases no response at all would be most appropriate...let alone offering any kind of extensive explanation that will most often not be accepted or understood.

If you expect to hang around here and actually help anyone, you'd best learn how to use the ignore feature.

oh yes, please... it would be soooo much nicer, if jeffs threads would not always get bombarded by metronome-defenders onward from post 5... i really don' t get it. jeff doesn't see the merritt in using them. get over it, please. this could be much more productive.

anyway, as i doubt that this will happen, thanks a lot again to jeff for your endurance. i - and i'm sure others as well - really appreciate it!!

 

[mobdirt]

have never used a metronome never will

 

[FantasticFour]

Hey @JeffBerlin, I have a question if you don't mind.

You have stated several times that scales were overrated. But in your lessons packages, scales (package 3) come before chord tones (package 4). Could you please explain why is that?

I know you are a Gary Burton fan, as I am myself. I followed his course on Jazz Improvisation online. In case you don't know how it works, it's a scale-a-week exploring structure, as related to the chord(s) you can use the scale to improvise on. The course ends with improvising with the different scales over a chord progression from a standard.
I'd like to know what in your opinion are the prerequisites before giving a try to such exercices, because right now they're probably quite out of my league. As proved by his example videos, which are an absolute wonder.

So my general question is about the right timing to tackle scales in a learning progression.

Thank you so much!

 

[DirtDog]

Well, I applaud you for being the first person I've ever read to admit that they are OK with confusing themselves when trying to learn how to play the bass.

Well thanks, I guess! ;-) I only have myself to blame if I waste my own time...

But even getting myself into a state of confusion and then finding my way through is a form of learning itself for me. I've had quite a few music teachers contribute directly to that state of confusion - piano, guitar and wind instruments. Only things that brought me musical clarity was learning the principles of rythym from a specific crusty old Army drumming instructor (where I got fairly accomplished and can read drum notation) and one lonely, half crazy bass teacher who brought me right into chord theory as opposed to scales, modes, rudiments, that all those other teachers had me try but didn't stick.

That short experience with the bass teacher (maybe a dozen lessons over a few months) along with my own self-learning and application thereof was something that unlocked the vault for my better understanding of music theory and allowed me to explore jazz bass to a modest degree. Application of chord theory also helped my dobro, lap steel and pedal steel playing as well as my composition and listening skills. But at the same time, I experienced a hand injury that has resulted in permanent limited dexterity for guitar and bass. A virtuoso I will never be, but a better musician I already am.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I have no doubt about it. But you didn't pay to be taught from your father which means that he offered his opinions in good faith instead of paying for a service that you might or might not have received. if your father has a music background, then you are fortunate as he probably gave this to you as well. If musical content is the very core of what you are being taught then you are in good hands. I've said this throughout this thread and elsewhere.

My father was a music major. Received a trophy for "Best Musician" in the U.T. (Texas) music in his sophomore year. My only objection to your comment was that you can't learn unless you pay for your training. It may be best for most, but it isn't universally true.
Roy Clark was once asked if he could read music. His reply was, "Not enough to interfere with my pickin'."
Miles Davis' embouchure was famously flawed.
I've also known many trained musicians that can't play a note without a chart in front of them. My mother who was a music grad, organist and choir director for a large church, grade school music teacher, opera singer, and piano teacher was one of those.

 

[Rhythmace]

I suppose that you could do without amplification. I always felt that the less work your hands had to do to play the bass, the less pain or overuse that your hand muscles would take place. If you have an amp, I would plug it in. If you don't then don't pluck the strings too hard.

A 31 inch scale bass would accommodate what I prepared for people to practice. If you went to a 34 inch scale, it will only add more frets to navigate as you ascend and descend the neck in the chord tone lessons that I wrote. But, I feel that you will be fine with the shorter scale.

I have an Ampeg BA 115. I guess I would be at the computer most of the time anyway and not in the living room watching TV. Good point about the volume issue. I wondered if plugged in was also important for hearing the notes fuller.

 

[JeffBerlin]

My father was a music major. Received a trophy for "Best Musician" in the U.T. (Texas) music in his sophomore year. My only objection to your comment was that you can't learn unless you pay for your training. It may be best for most, but it isn't universally true.
Roy Clark was once asked if he could read music. His reply was, "Not enough to interfere with my pickin'."
Miles Davis' embouchure was famously flawed.
I've also known many trained musicians that can't play a note without a chart in front of them. My mother who was a music grad, organist and choir director for a large church, grade school music teacher, opera singer, and piano teacher was one of those.

There is only two ways to learn; 1. Being self taught and 2. Being trained in music.

Roy Clark was self taught apparently. Miles Davis' embouchure apparently came from a self taught approach as well. Many musicians aren't trained to improve (play music without a chart.) Why criticize their lack of skill if this wasn't something that maybe they didn't seek to learn. Classically trained musicians such as your mom was never trained to function in music except to interpret the written note.

I don't think that ever said even once that you can't learn unless you pay for musical training.

 

[wintremute]

Well, I read the whole thread. What a lovely cross-section of TB people. Normally I say that TB has the nicest members on the internet, but if I only read this thread I would not think that.

My favorite part (because I love irony) is all of the people saying, "Jeff, it's not what you're saying, it's how you say it" in some of the rudest ways I've seen on this forum. I insist you take the high road, but as for me...well....

Jeff, you say you want to answer questions but are having some difficulty using the forums? I'll try to help. I'm assuming you're doing this on a computer. Use the link you were shown earlier:
Ask Jeff Berlin

You'll see something like this:

When someone starts a new thread to ask you a question, their name will be below the thread. I've circled in red the current questions posted. Once you start posting your answers (and comments and follow-up questions) in those threads, you'll start to get alerts (as I'm sure you're well aware of by now).


So now, TalkBass, the ball is in your court. We have one of the greatest bassists of our time among us. He seems to want to teach. He seems to love to teach. So start asking him some questions! Get out of this circle-jerk and put him to the test. Let's see what he teaches.

Finally, Jeff, I do have a question for you. Will you be at NAMM? If so, I hope I get a chance to meet you and get a picture of you with carrots.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey @JeffBerlin, I have a question if you don't mind.

You have stated several times that scales were overrated. But in your lessons packages, scales (package 3) come before chord tones (package 4). Could you please explain why is that?

I know you are a Gary Burton fan, as I am myself. I followed his course on Jazz Improvisation online. In case you don't know how it works, it's a scale-a-week exploring structure, as related to the chord(s) you can use the scale to improvise on. The course ends with improvising with the different scales over a chord progression from a standard.
I'd like to know what in your opinion are the prerequisites before giving a try to such exercices, because right now they're probably quite out of my league. As proved by his example videos, which are an absolute wonder.

So my general question is about the right timing to tackle scales in a learning progression.

Thank you so much!

You are correct. Scales are linear while practicing them can be vertical. Scales are the source of most basic music but are weak academic principles as they are taught in bass education. Modes as well.

Package Three are etudes based on chord types. Camj7 C7 C-7 etc. These aren't scales but chords. The etudes are written on the scale of each different chord, but most music is. They aren't written as C D E F G A B C which is how many practice scales.

The right time tends to be right from the beginning if the etudes are rhythmically understandable. Package One are etudes entirely written on a C scale, but don't sound like this. In that I've used the notes to define chords and melodies that don't follow a straight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 note configuration, non-readers are reading harmonically appropriate music starting on the second lesson. And while those pure beginning lessons do include C D E F G A B C, they are done for reading purposes and to eventually lead to a more varied chordal use of scales. I don't think that I've seen bass literature teaching scales this way.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Well, I read the whole thread. What a lovely cross-section of TB people. Normally I say that TB has the nicest members on the internet, but if I only read this thread I would not think that.

My favorite part (because I love irony) is all of the people saying, "Jeff, it's not what you're saying, it's how you say it" in some of the rudest ways I've seen on this forum. I insist you take the high road, but as for me...well....

Jeff, you say you want to answer questions but are having some difficulty using the forums? I'll try to help. I'm assuming you're doing this on a computer. Use the link you were shown earlier:
Ask Jeff Berlin

You'll see something like this:

View attachment 2872650

When someone starts a new thread to ask you a question, their name will be below the thread. I've circled in red the current questions posted. Once you start posting your answers (and comments and follow-up questions) in those threads, you'll start to get alerts (as I'm sure you're well aware of by now).


So now, TalkBass, the ball is in your court. We have one of the greatest bassists of our time among us. He seems to want to teach. He seems to love to teach. So start asking him some questions! Get out of this circle-jerk and put him to the test. Let's see what he teaches.

Finally, Jeff, I do have a question for you. Will you be at NAMM? If so, I hope I get a chance to meet you and get a picture of you with carrots.

First, thank you for your support. I appreciate your understanding of the situation here with some people as I see the same thing as you do.

I'll be at NAMM at Markbass on Friday to Sunday at 12 noon to play, and at Cort on Friday to Sunday at 2 and 3:30 to give free bass lessons. We can sit and I can share some bass thoughts with you and try to answer any question you might have.

Cheers and thank you again.

Jeff

 

[consectaneus]

Jeff, though you may not start a phrase on the root, are you nevertheless thinking root all the time? For example, though I may begin a minor chord inversion on the third, it's hard for me not to continually think about where that is without thinking of it in relation to where the root is. Is this a habit one should ween oneself from?

 

[Groove Doctor]

1. The Views.
At the centre they are very solid.

2. How the views are expressed, the delivery.
They could be said in fewer words. Focus on the core of your message, and spend less time tearing down other methods.

3. How the views are received.
That is beyond your control, just avoid criticising or offending others.

4. How the views are defended.
You can't win someone over who refuses to listen, they're not ready (yet). Let them go & focus on those that are open to learning.

 

[FantasticFour]

You are correct. Scales are linear while practicing them can be vertical. Scales are the source of most basic music but are weak academic principles as they are taught in bass education. Modes as well.

Package Three are etudes based on chord types. Camj7 C7 C-7 etc. These aren't scales but chords. The etudes are written on the scale of each different chord, but most music is. They aren't written as C D E F G A B C which is how many practice scales.

The right time tends to be right from the beginning if the etudes are rhythmically understandable. Package One are etudes entirely written on a C scale, but don't sound like this. In that I've used the notes to define chords and melodies that don't follow a straight 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 note configuration, non-readers are reading harmonically appropriate music starting on the second lesson. And while those pure beginning lessons do include C D E F G A B C, they are done for reading purposes and to eventually lead to a more varied chordal use of scales. I don't think that I've seen bass literature teaching scales this way.

Thanks Jeff, that makes total sense.
I've been browsing through various material since this conversation started, as I've actively taken steps to change the way I practice. I can confirm I haven't seen anything like what you describe and coming from a classical background I can totally see the void it fills.
Having listened to the podcast where you explain the contents of the packages, I guess starting from #2 makes the more sense considering my profile.
Thanks again!

 

[Rhythmace]

Found this in an old book. "Musical time is not mechanical, like the ticking of a clock, but is more related to the pulse beat of our organism. It may speed up or slow down to some extent and still be normal." Robert Lilienfeld

 

[Acoustic356]

I think there is a difference between time and synchronization.

Although there may be fluctuations in the overall time, there is still a need to be synchronized.

If the band is playing a passage where there are pushes, and one or more people miss the mark, it's a nightmare. The same goes with playing fast passages as well.

In order to achieve that, one must practice "synchronization" if you don't have a band... a metronome or drum machine may be a great way to practice.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff, though you may not start a phrase on the root, are you nevertheless thinking root all the time? For example, though I may begin a minor chord inversion on the third, it's hard for me not to continually think about where that is without thinking of it in relation to where the root is. Is this a habit one should ween oneself from?

No! As bass players, the root is the logical point to start from for the most part. In learning, the more that you vary the harmonic content that you are reading, the more that you will get insight into things that are not confined to instrument but to music itself.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I suppose that you could do without amplification. I always felt that the less work your hands had to do to play the bass, the less pain or overuse that your hand muscles would take place. If you have an amp, I would plug it in. If you don't then don't pluck the strings too hard.

A 31 inch scale bass would accommodate what I prepared for people to practice. If you went to a 34 inch scale, it will only add more frets to navigate as you ascend and descend the neck in the chord tone lessons that I wrote. But, I feel that you will be fine with the shorter scale.

FYI: scale length and number of frets are independent. You can have a 34" scale with 20 frets.