Jeff Berlin asks - Why Do Some Object to My Educational Views

[Lownote38]

He didn't know where to find the questions.

To be a forum expert there should be a basic knowledge of how the forum works.

He may not have been told that his threads were put into their own category. When he returned to this forum, his threads weren't grouped together like that at first.
To me, being a forum expert is knowing valuable information about playing bass that can be imparted to others here. This is a bass forum and not a computer forum, correct?
I'd love to get back to the discussion, though, and have some people ask Jeff some questions.

 

[Double E]

Jeff has already explained going through therapy to better himself. I admire him for saying so publicly. I'm also quite sure that he has better things to do than troll this place. I actually haven't seen one post he's made this time around that would constitute trolling. I've definitely seen other members troll him, though. If you can go to one of his clinics at some point, you'll figure out that he's a nice guy with the best intentions. I've interacted with Jeff online and in person over the course of 20 years, and he has never said anything that I find offensive.

The worst of the discussions that ended up in JB's bannings have been deleted. I was never took part in any of those threads but I did watch them unfold. JB was just as responsible for the deterioration of communication as those that were apparently antagonizing him.

I have stated that I believe in his methods on teaching music, he makes perfect sense to me on that level.

I'd also like to think he's come back to impart some knowledge but it just seems he's got a big chip on his shoulder with the topics he is starting. Like this thread for instance "...Why do some object..."?? Surely this man is smart enough to know, as do most of the rest of us, that this is going to lead to all the same arguments he was involved with before. This has been discussed ad nauseam both in his presence and beyond.

It's no wonder the discussions are devolving into the same familiar nonsense.

 

[Lownote38]

The worst of the discussions that ended up in JB's bannings have been deleted. I was never took part in any of those threads but I did watch them unfold. JB was just as responsible for the deterioration of communication as those that were apparently antagonizing him.

I have stated that I believe in his methods on teaching music, he makes perfect sense to me on that level.

I'd also like to think he's come back to impart some knowledge but it just seems he's got a big chip on his shoulder with the topics he is starting. Like this thread for instance "...Why do some object..."?? Surely this man is smart enough to know, as do most of the rest of us, that this is going to lead to all the same arguments he was involved with before. This has been discussed ad nauseam both in his presence and beyond.

It's no wonder the discussions are devolving into the same familiar nonsense.

Maybe it all is devolving again, but I put more blame on the members here who are trolling than I do Jeff. He honestly does want to know why people object to his educational views. I believe in the teaching methods he uses as well, and if some people don't, they should either try to rationally discuss things with Jeff, or not read these threads.

 

[mobdirt]

Maybe it all is devolving again, but I put more blame on the members here who are trolling than I do Jeff. He honestly does want to know why people object to his educational views. I believe in the teaching methods he uses as well, and if some people don't, they should either try to rationally discuss things with Jeff, or not read these threads.

^

 

[Rhythmace]

It's clear that the real problem is WHAT Jeff is saying and not HOW he is saying it. The written word obviously doesn't communicate the tone, but man some of you guys are really angry about a simple opinion or two.

 

[5thsand4ths]

Jeff has a view. We get it. Now what? Is that all there is to say?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff has a view. We get it. Now what? Is that all there is to say?

In a forum, I can answer questions if people ask them. But many don't! If people choose to be angry in how they voice heir comments, I invite them to stop this. I'm not responsible for how people decide to post their thoughts.

Not interacting with me leaves me out of interacting with people. The onus is on people to reach out to me if they wish to do so.

 

[JeffBerlin]

It's clear that the real problem is WHAT Jeff is saying and not HOW he is saying it. The written word obviously doesn't communicate the tone, but man some of you guys are really angry about a simple opinion or two.

Indeed! Sensitivity and/or anger seems fairly prolific emotions here and I am not responsible for them. I offer no sarcasm. I name no one. I allow my thoughts to include terms such as "exceptions aside" "for the most part" "many" "some" "if one chooses" and "people should decide for themselves." I make every effort to make palatable unpopular views of learning and I do it because of my full knowledge of my past behavior here on TB. I am compelled to approach people differently. If people still choose to be miffed, this isn't on me.

 

[DirtDog]

Well try this, them!

Research 20 top athletes in any sport who achieved their top status and skills who weren't either self taught athletes or trained in their sports. If you can't find any, then this points to an irrefutable fact, that there are only two ways to become capable in a sport. If you associate this with music and notice that there are only two ways to become a capable player, then bass players might start to focus in on only two possibilities to choose from (or participate in both which I recommend) and turn away from teaching methods and suggestions that are experimental instead of concrete. But now you won't know this for sure.

Well, I could take twenty anythings and observe for x and/or y and that will only be enough to draw conclusions about those twenty things. Methodology is too weak to do anything else - otherwise, you arrive at a faulty (or inductive) generalization based on insufficient data/evidence. You just can't apply those conclusions (not "facts") to the population at large.

But I'd like to focus on this notion of self-taught vs. formal training (in any discipline). I jumped into this discussion based on your comment from earlier this week:

Here are two thoughts of mine that will fuel this discussion:

1. Learning is different than Playing!

2. There are only two ways to learn; a. being self taught and all that goes with it, and b. learning musical content based in harmony, melody, and rhythm.

Your comments are welcome.

OK, but in first post above you say that the two ways are self-taught or trained (I'm assuming "formally trained" based on the ongoing discussion) which contradicts what you wrote the second post (from earlier in the week). As well, you describe to things that are largely non-equivalent in terms of categorization - one is a process and one is content.

I'm really trying to understand a few things here - and in the spirit of asking Jeff Berlin some questions, here goes:

• Are you arguing that being formally trained ensures a higher level of proficiency than being self-trained? Or,
• Do you believe both self- and formal training could assure the same outcomes as long as specific material is being studied in a specific manner? If so, what is that specific material and what is that specific manner?
• Do you believe that musical content is a more important musical concept to grasp than rote exercises/rudiments are for a developing musician?

The only reason I'm being pedantic here is, a., you asked and b., you have credibility and a higher musical profile/skill than most of us punters here and I'd really like to understand the essence of what you are advocating.

And the reason that I'm curious is that, as a musician, I'm largely self-taught (by ear, on multiple instruments) after a number of largely dismal experiences in formal musical education (save for one teacher who was able to teach me chord theory - by playing!) but that doesn't stop me from learning or trying different ways to learn things. I'd say most skills, knowledge and expertise I've developed in life have not been taught to me in the formal sense (despite having two academic degrees). I've learned by doing, intuition, osmosis, reading or listening for the most part - and I'm hardly the only person in human history to learn in these ways.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Maybe it all is devolving again, but I put more blame on the members here who are trolling than I do Jeff. He honestly does want to know why people object to his educational views. I believe in the teaching methods he uses as well, and if some people don't, they should either try to rationally discuss things with Jeff, or not read these threads.

If you have taken notice of this, then others have as well. I appreciate this!

 

[JeffBerlin]

As a musician, I'm largely self-taught (by ear, on multiple instruments) after a number of largely dismal experiences in formal musical education (save for one teacher who was able to teach me chord theory - by playing!) but that doesn't stop me from learning or finding new ways to learn old things. I'd say most skills, knowledge and expertise I've developed in life have not been taught to me in the formal sense (despite having two academic degrees). I've learned by doing, intuition, osmosis, reading or listening for the most part.

I am sure that lots of other people have had your experience being taught bass.Your experience precisely represents my point about bass education; it is a flawed system of learning.

 

[DirtDog]

I am sure that lots of other people have had your experience being taught bass.Your experience precisely represents my point about bass education; it is a flawed system of learning and many people seem to prefer to defend it.

So, what's the flawed part? Crappy teachers? Crappy methods? What's the non-crappy approach?

The thing I like about being self-taught is that I have found the ideal methods of learning for my specific modest bass playing goals - didn't need a middle man to confuse me, I can do that all by myself - for free!

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Please stop acting like you have been insulated from the stupidity of the internet. This site is a social media site first and foremost...where folks with a common interest tend to gather and kibitz much like any other social media site. It is unattractive for you to act incredulous about something we all know you are well aware of.

Don't try to say that you honestly don't know about the frivolity of discussions that take place here...you are willingly participating in a fruitless discussion as we speak!

I must say, being a new member here, it's still taking me a minute to get accustomed to this fact myself. I'd be lying if I said upon joining the site I didn't expect more of a priority focus on education. Not that I'm in anyway against what this site stands for, I've come to quite enjoy this over the past couple months! But, in that same breathe, I've also never been more active on this site since seeing the discussion Mr. Berlin has brought here. Even if the discussion may wonder at times, it's still quite thought inspiring compared to a lot of threads I've read up til now.

 

[JeffBerlin]

1. Are you arguing that being formally trained ensures a higher level of proficiency than being self-trained?

2. Do you believe both self- and formal training could assure the same outcomes as long as specific material is being studied in a specific manner? If so, what is that specific material and what is that specific manner?

3. Do you believe that musical content is a more important musical concept to grasp than rote exercises/rudiments are for a developing musician?

I thought to number your questions for easier answering. Here are my thoughts.

1. Yes and no! Many self taught players acquire great skills in playing. But being taught musical content based in harmony, rhythm, and melody is the only proven academic approach that gives everyone the same chance at improving their playing. That is EVERYONE! To what degree and in what capacity those lessons will benefit you isn't predictable. What is predictable is that if you practice these things regularly, everyone is going to play better.

2. Being self taught (and all that goes with it) coupled with being taught top musical academic principles is the entire experience of learning that any bass player in the world needs to learn how to play. This Dynamic Duo has produced 100% of every bass player that ever played a bass guitar. If you are asking what that specific musical material is, ahh, now you might understand better how bass educators have not fulfilled their obligation to their students. Every bass teacher should be able to answer this for you in my opinion. I can't describe to you what to practice in detail because I don't know what you musically are capable of. But the specific method of practice is easy to describe: Practice written material every day. Do it out of time if needs be and tap your foot. Don't use a metronome. Fix your mistakes when they happen. Review! Review! Review! Take breaks if you feel tired. You will be in a mind oriented learning eexperience and this can feel tiring. Don't warm up. Just play! Playing IS warming up. Never practice until you are exhausted. We don't learn under duress. Don't force yourself to learn. Just "get into the water in the shallow end and swim. Pace yourself. And practice every day but remember that even God took a day off. You can as well.

3. Rote exercises are valuable if they contain irrefutable musical harmonic and rhythmic perfection. But this is a broad term. Any qualified bass teacher can lay it out for you in a more appropriate manner. Reading music as edutes is extremely valuable. Reading itself isn't always of a benefit. Some music regarded as valuable reading isn't all that beneficial for bass players. The Jamerson book comes to mind. Etudes based in solid harmonic and melodic principles are great. Scales and modes are overrated and while you can be taught these musical principles, these aren't lessons that carry any more or less importance than any other academic offering. Just be aware of this.

I hope I helped.

 

[JeffBerlin]

So, what's the flawed part? Crappy teachers? Crappy methods? What's the non-crappy approach?

The thing I like about being self-taught is that I have found the ideal methods of learning for my specific modest bass playing goals - didn't need a middle man to confuse me, I can do that all by myself - for free!

Well, I applaud you for being the first person I've ever read to admit that they are OK with confusing themselves when trying to learn how to play the bass.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

I thought to number your questions for easier answering. Here are my thoughts.

1. Yes and no! Many self taught players acquire great skills in playing. But being taught musical content based in harmony, rhythm, and melody is the only proven academic approach that gives everyone the same chance at improving their playing. That is EVERYONE! To what degree and in what capacity those lessons will benefit you isn't predictable. What is predictable is that if you practice these things regularly, everyone is going to play better.

2. Being self taught (and all that goes with it) coupled with being taught top musical academic principles is the entire experience that has grown 100% of every bass player that ever played a bass guitar. The only assurance that you can have that you will learn how to play your bass is by practicing musical content. But this isn't realistic because practicing academic music has no impact on anything outside of the academic experience. You have to be self taught to complete your musical development. Finally, if you are asking what that specific material is and what the specific manner of teaching it is, ahh, now you might understand better how bass educators have not fulfilled their obligation to their students. I can't describe to you what to practice in detail because I don't know what you musically know. But the specific method of practice is easy to describe: Practice your written material every day. Do it out of time if needs be and tap your foot. Don't use a metronome. Fix your mistakes when they happen. Review! Review! Review! Take breaks because you will be in a mind oriented learning eexperience and this can feel tiring. Don't warm up. Just play! Never play until you are exhausted or uncomfortable. Pace yourself. And do this every day. But remember that even God took a day off. You can as well.

3. Rote exercises are valuable if they contain irrefutable musical harmonic and rhythmic perfection. Reading as well, but you should be aware that music of what is touted as valuable reading isn't really beneficial for bass players. The Jamerson book comes to mind. Etudes based in solid harmonic and melodic principles are great. Scales and modes are overrated so just be aware of this. I hope I helped.

I posted this earlier, so hopefully I'm not being a pest. Nonetheless though, would love to hear what you have to say about this!
For someone with a general understanding of theory and harmony (Basic understanding of circle of fifths, can construct altered/extended chords and use them in a basic context, can improvise/walk over most "standard" progressions (ii-V-I, I-VI7-ii-V, etc.) and standard song forms (eight/sixteen bar forms, blues, etc.), can analyze a fair portion of "jazz standard" pieces (something like Giant Steps is certainly a little over my head), and posses a basic understanding of composition, arrangement, and reharmonization) what may you consider the "next step" in continuing to learn theory? I'm currently reading into a book on arrangement and composition for jazz big bands (Not something I'm planning on pursuing anytime soon, but has some great information nonetheless) and am continuing to analyze and transcribe various songs (as well as learning the melodies, chords, bass lines, and then finally working on improvising to the song). I've been thinking about researching more into the circle of fifths and it's functions related to harmony and also more on arranging (I feel that I may be overlooking something more fundamental however). There seems to be so many paths to pursue at this point I'm kinda feeling paralyzed not knowing what the next logical step in education would be.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I posted this earlier, so hopefully I'm not being a pest. Nonetheless though, would love to hear what you have to say about this!
For someone with a general understanding of theory and harmony (Basic understanding of circle of fifths, can construct altered/extended chords and use them in a basic context, can improvise/walk over most "standard" progressions (ii-V-I, I-VI7-ii-V, etc.) and standard song forms (eight/sixteen bar forms, blues, etc.), can analyze a fair portion of "jazz standard" pieces (something like Giant Steps is certainly a little over my head), and posses a basic understanding of composition, arrangement, and reharmonization) what may you consider the "next step" in continuing to learn theory? I'm currently reading into a book on arrangement and composition for jazz big bands (Not something I'm planning on pursuing anytime soon, but has some great information nonetheless) and am continuing to analyze and transcribe various songs (as well as learning the melodies, chords, bass lines, and then finally working on improvising to the song). I've been thinking about researching more into the circle of fifths and it's functions related to harmony and also more on arranging (I feel that I may be overlooking something more fundamental however). There seems to be so many paths to pursue at this point I'm kinda feeling paralyzed not knowing what the next logical step in education would be.

My very first desire is to applaud you because you are into music itself. Bravo! Just don't forget to have fun with your bass playing at the same time.

Transcriptions of players far better than I ever was got me to raise up my playing. Plus, segmented practicing, that is, being assigned, or choosing four bars (let's say) of a solo and practicing them in 12 keys totally changed my musical thing for the better.

But don't ignore being self taught. Buy those CD's and enjoy what you both hear and learn from them. Jam with people better than you are. Always aim slightly higher than where you presently are at. Walking up a gentle incline requires more effort than just walking a flat road, but the walk isn't awful and you are making a tolerable effort to go higher than where you were.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

My very first desire is to applaud you because you are into music itself. Bravo! Just don't forget to have fun with your bass playing at the same time.

Transcriptions of players far better than I ever was got me to raise up my playing. Plus, segmented practicing, that is, being assigned, or choosing four bars (let's say) of a solo and practicing them in 12 keys totally changed my musical thing for the better.

But don't ignore being self taught. Buy those CD's and enjoy what you both hear and learn from them. Jam with people better than you are. Always aim slightly higher than where you presently are at. Walking up a gentle incline requires more effort than just walking a flat road, but the walk isn't awful and you are making a tolerable effort to go higher than where you were.

I suppose I'm blessed with a mindset that enjoys practicing to a degree. I understand very much what you mean though. All practice, no play is never for the better spiritually (or healthy!).
Transposing phrases and melodies I've learned into all twelve keys is something I've always thought to do, but never fully went about such. The notion of picking four bars is something I love. I'm not sure if this is what you intend by doing this amount, but that should typically encompass a full progression (or more!) of some sort. This alone makes me realize at least one of the many benefits of transposing lines through the circle of fifths.
Your last paragraph brings another question to mind. I've been searching high and low for people of a skill level above my own, and I've been graced to find a couple that are far beyond me in terms of technical ability (though not near me in theory terms). I don't live in a completely rural area, but certainly no metropolis, so the number of musicians around isn't necessarily substantial. And player's with an interest in musical knowledge for more than just playing in the local punk, country, or metal act are even more far and few. I've almost resorted to finding other instructors in my area just to find more advanced people to play with. Would you have any recommendations towards finding people to jam with when the pool can be a bit shallow per se?
As always, thank you so much for the response and kind words of advice!

 

[Rhythmace]

Jeff, if I start your courses, how important is it to be plugged in? I have a Rogue Beatle bass that's a 31" scale. If I later go to 34" bass, will that be a big adjustment? Thanks in advance.

 

[DirtDog]

I hope I helped.

Yes, thanks for the response Jeff!