Jeff Berlin says - Bass Teachers Work Harder at Fixing Learning Concepts That Don't Require Fixing

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Basically you've got the modes from the Major, Harmonic minor and Melodic minor ascending. No secret sauce here! Plenty of free resources online, but I strongly recommend buying the Mark Levine Jazz Piano book. Excellent theory and jazz harmony resource. Imo, for all musicians regardless of instrument
I have no doubt that the Mark Levine book is a great reference. thanks for the heads up.
I still think there is special sauce involved in this music theory. After adding harmonic minors and melodic minors there are 252 keys? I explain my reasoning below.
If I start on the circle of 5ths or the circle of 4ths, there are 12 keys, (some say there are 14 keys, maybe more). To stay with the spelling, where the notes are A,B,C,D,E,F,G, and the associated accidentals. there probably more keys, (I can think of Cb for one, that is not described on the circle, but is considered a valid jazz scale) but for the sake of discussion, we stick to the 12 keys, following what I believe there are only 7 scales to work with, and those are defined by the piano's white keys, so there only 7 keys to worry about. then as you explain above there are three mode groups to worry about, Major scale, Harmonic minor and Melodic minor ascending. So you have 21 scales (modes?). However, when you switch to harmonic minor or melodic minor ascending, accidentals are required to define the scales, so now the black keys are available as well as the double flats and double sharps, as we know spelling is important, I have never run into triple flats or triple sharps, so in the world of quantum music theory, they might exist [a little humor on my part]).

Expand the keys to accepted major scales found on the circle of 5ths or 4ths, you have 12 major keys, since within the defined modes, relative minors are included, we wouldn't double count. 12 major keys, and each key has a dorian, Ionian, etc., associated with it. That's how I got 84 scale-modes. I believe the math is straight forward. I accept your addition without argument that Harmonic minor and Melodic minor are acceptable scales, now take the dorian, the Ionian, etc., from each one, you get 252 scales-modes.
And we haven't spoken about super Locrian, Lydian augmented, and Lydian dominant, and other permutations. Its my understanding, the three special scale-modes, I just mentioned can be called by other scale-modes, per Dan Erksine, a contributor on another website.
Special sauces are made from known ingredients, its the mix of the ingredients that make it special sauce.

In the case of music theory, in western music, we have 12 notes in a chromatic scale, and how they are mixed really how they are spelled make up the incantations we call scales-modes. I am just a mediocre bass-player with a junior high music education, that out of curiosity conjured up devils because I thought a self study of music theory would be beneficial to my playing.

(By the way, I have taken some liberties in my word selection, using such phrases as "special sauce, incantations, etc,.)

To me, the term mode should have stuck to using, the white keys on the piano. (Which wasn't invented when the equiv white key pitches were the only game in town, in western music).
 
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Sure! I am not trying to just get the last word. But, you WERE educated in schools and by the same methods that we all learned from. It is commendable that you started reading early, but, you still participated in the same studies while in school because it was mandatory that you do so. If I am wrong and you were except from the same lessons that we all learned as a mandatory part of our education, please let me know.
I don't remember, because I wasn't paying attention. ;)
 
And we haven't spoken about super Locrian, Lydian augmented, and Lydian dominant, and other permutations.

I'll remedy that:)

Super Locrian = seventh mode of the ascending melodic minor scale.

Lydian augmented = third mode of the ascending melodic minor scale.

Lydian dominant = fourth mode of the melodic minor ascending scale.

If you want to lecture about the modes, imo you should have them memorised, but I don't teach and as long as I understand which scales they come from I can work them out or even google if necessary. I gig a lot and the charts that I sometimes get given to read have chord symbols on and maybe on the very rare occasion a mode or two.

But I'm afraid you're stuck with modes, can't uninvent them and they've been around for a very long time, albeit ignored by many. Personally, I find the concept of modes most useful with regards to composition and analysing solos. Also useful for people with an ego problem:)

Anyway, that's me done. Maybe you should ask Jeff what he feels about modes, and their importance in music education.

Mode (music) - Wikipedia
 
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But of course, YouTube musicians have a better knowledge about intervals; therefore, please continue...

I don't have to continue anything - I already told you where to look to find out what I said. Do you have a problem with reading? Too hard for you to figure out how the site works? Are you just too lazy and expect me to repeat so you can get a free refresher course?

Hint: If the teacher played C and then F and you answered "That's 5 semitones", was that the right answer? Since you're only a 'used to play' kind of guy, maybe you used to know, but no more.

As for youtube musicians, you'll have to ask them - I don't know anything about them.:meh:
 
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Here’s what I remember clearly.
I was 8 and during my solfeggio class a teacher would play any two notes (within one octave) on the piano and I would answer.
(Two Octave intervals were next year).
There’s no question whether it’s Gb and C or it’s F# and B#.
Just - What is the interval?
.

That’s absolutely fine. No need to get hung up about it.

Perhaps some people need to be reminded of the title of this thread:)

Jeff Berlin says - Bass Teachers Work Harder at Fixing Learning Concepts That Don't Require Fixing
 
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No disrespect, meant,
I'll remedy that:)

Super Locrian = seventh mode of the ascending melodic minor scale.

Lydian augmented = third mode of the ascending melodic minor scale.

Lydian dominant = fourth mode of the melodic minor ascending scale.

If you want to lecture about the modes, imo you should have them memorised, but I don't teach and as long as I understand which scales they come from I can work them out or even google if necessary. I gig a lot and the charts that I sometimes get given to read have chord symbols on and maybe on the very rare occasion a mode or two.

But I'm afraid you're stuck with modes, can't uninvent them and they've been around for a very long time, albeit ignored by many. Personally, I find the concept of modes most useful with regards to composition and analysing solos. Also useful for people with an ego problem:)

Anyway, that's me done. Maybe you should ask Jeff what he feels about modes, and their importance in music education.

Mode (music) - Wikipedia
I looked the terms before I posted, but, your response shows those of us with less than a bachelors in music have to use our basses as paddles in a canoe on that infamous but fictional creek.
One the things I learned in the work place know your audience, in my case, most of my writing was business related with appended technical reports. The web gives clues to the secret language of music.
The concept of modes, once the realm of the Greeks (which we have only name descriptions) and singing monks, has highjacked and has become gnostic in nature. As some of rhe posters say dont trust the net. @Mark Ambler, I appreciate your response, and those of @JeffBerlin.
I was dropping cookie crumbs to leave a trail in this maze of music theory, but the murderous ravens and crows of metal ate them.
 
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That’s absolutely fine.

o_O He only stated the question, not the answer....


Perhaps some people need to be reminded of the title of this thread

The ultimate point of the OP is that bass players should acquire proper, solid musical knowledge, not just learn how to bang through a progression.

Somebody who doesn't know the difference between an augmented 4th and a diminished 5th - they're both comprised of 6 semitones :jawdrop: - is lacking that knowledge.


a better knowledge about intervals...

How about you answer the question: If the teacher played C and then F and you answered "That's 5 semitones", was that the right answer?
 
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o_O He only stated the question, not the answer....


The ultimate point of the OP is that bass players should acquire proper, solid musical knowledge, not just learn how to bang through a progression.

Somebody who doesn't know the difference between an augmented 4th and a diminished 5th - they're both comprised of 6 semitones :jawdrop: - is lacking that knowledge.

I understood that his implication was that his teacher hadn't got into the anal type of theory stuff that tends to alienate people. Oh my god, is it an augmented 4th or a flattened 5th?!?!?! LOL. Don't sweat the small stuff.
 
=Don't sweat the small stuff.

Knowing how to spell a scale is not small stuff. If that 'alienates' somebody, they should consider taking up bowling instead of music.

Then again, as somebody said at the start of this thread, there are bass players and there are musicians. I guess maybe you fall into the former category.

Goodbye - Thank you for your time.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out... :banghead:
 
Knowing how to spell a scale is not small stuff. If that 'alienates' somebody, they should consider taking up bowling instead of music.

Then again, as somebody said at the start of this thread, there are bass players and there are musicians. I guess maybe you fall into the former category.

Goodbye - Thank you for your time.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out... :banghead:

Although I've been playing professionally for 40 years and have studied with well known and respected teachers, I've never come across this nitpicking theory police attitude before. You even need to denigrate me in an insulting way. Fine, whatever floats your boat. Enjoy your 'superiority'.
 
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o_O

Somebody who doesn't know the difference between an augmented 4th and a diminished 5th - they're both comprised of 6 semitones :jawdrop: - is lacking that knowledge.




How about you answer the question: If the teacher played C and then F and you answered "That's 5 semitones", was that the right answer?
IMO, your answer is obvious to those who studied music in college, but, since, I freely admit to a poor musical education, in junior high, it was not obvious to me. First thing that went through my mind, was, ok, I play the root, and the equiv of a sharp 4 note or a flat 5, do I play the minor 3rd or major 3rd with it? You don't have to tell me a chord is not being described, as with a little research, you are just describing, a note six semi-tones above the root. Look I agree that an augmented 4th and a diminished 5th, are not the same. To me, its a matter of proper muscical spelling. It wasnt whether it was a shift of six smi-tones, but whether you were describing a chord. For the second question, I would have said it's a distance of 5 semi-tones. Some of these posts are akin to reading technical writing, not in science but music. Unfortunately a lot of what's written is out of my league. (Same thing happens when I read posts about amp design)
 
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I understood that his implication was that his teacher hadn't got into the anal type of theory stuff that tends to alienate people. Oh my god, is it an augmented 4th or a flattened 5th?!?!?! LOL. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Where does the 'big' stuff end and the small begin? There are people who argue that knowing a transposable major scale box pattern and a few cliche licks is all you need...

From reading this thread you give the impression that you know the difference, and a lot more besides. Presumably because you gave it sufficient import that you 1) paid attention in class or 2) took it upon yourself to find out. Yet you've spent maybe 10 times longer that it takes to learn this stuff criticising those that don't know it. Now you seem to be suggesting they don't even bother.

We see people who know nothing critising others for wanting to learn, and on some twisted logic I get that, but someone who purports to know stuff suggesting that someone who might not should not improve their knowledge is absurd. Sounds like a recipe for Secret sauce...
 
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instead of twelve major keys there's 84 different modes,

There is one major scale that we can play in 12 different keys. Its algorithm is Tonic-W-W-H-W-W-W-H/Octave.
In C Major, it is represented by C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C.
In Eb Major, it is represented by Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb ... etc. etc.

That one major scale, being comprised of 7 notes, has 7 modes: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian. (Those 7 include the major scale itself - Ionian mode, and the natural minor scale - Aeolian mode.)
Each of those modes begins on one of the 7 degrees of major scale, in the order stated.

That gives you a total of 7 modes, which can be played in 12 different keys: Regardless of what key you are in, the algorithm for any given mode is the same, so there are only 7 modes, just as there is only 1 major scale: Ionian mode, its algorithm being Tonic-W-W-H-W-W-W-H/Octave.
 
@CereBassum, you just stated 84 keys-modes, One doesn't have to distinguish between Relative Major, and Relative Minor, when you include modes, the two definitions are included. Now, when you add melodic minor, you have another 84 key-modes, and then with harmonic minor, that's another 84. three major mode groups, and the special names like super-locrian. Define it any way you want, there are at least 252 scales from three algorithms, 7 modes, and 12 keys. And this is from 12(17) notes in a chromatic system (when you include enharmonics). I didn't create the complicated system, others did.

Just maybe its a KISS approach, Keep it Secret Sauce,
This will be my last post, as my posts deviates from @JeffBerlin's thesis, that it is music that is important.
 
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would have said it's a distance of 5 semi-tones.
First part is spot on - the harder part! But this one, not so much - it's just a Perfect 4th. That is the interval.

A perfect 4th traverses a distance of 5 semitones, but 5 semitones is not what a Perfect 4th means. It means its the 4th note up from the note you started on, and it's neither major nor minor but "perfect".

"5 semi-tones" is not an interval - it's just a measure of what I call "chromatic distance" between two notes. (maybe that's not the best term - IDK) The reason is because it's not a musical description - it doesn't give you any musical information. An interval is a musical term that gives you information about the note in question: Intervals are a Unison, a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, a 6th, a 7th, or an Octave. That's musical information - it tells you the name of the note in a scale or chord when you spell it. If you are starting on C, then a 4th tells you F. "5 semi-tones" doesn't tell you F. It could also be telling you E#. (E# would be an augmented 3rd if C is the tonic.)

Intervals can also be major, minor, perfect, augmented or diminished (not all of them can be all those types - you can't have major 5th, for example, because that's also a minor 5th - so it's called perfect 5th ). That's also musical information about the note in question: Starting on C, if we say the interval is a Minor 3rd, that tells us we're talking about an E a 3rd, and since it's minor, it's an E that is lowered a half stop to become Eb.

That is all there is to it - it's not very complicated - the important point is that an interval is a term that conveys musical information.

(I took a few college courses and read some theory books - I don't have any degrees in music.)
 
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Although I've been playing professionally for 40 years and have studied with well known and respected teachers,

Yet you actually think that knowing the difference is between a augmented 4th and a diminished 5th is nitpicking. Something is not right there....

I've never come across this nitpicking theory police attitude before.

??? I'm not policing you. You can do and think whatever you please. Why do think that when someone wants to be precise about terminology in a public forum, they're trying to "police you"?!

You posted something here - that means it's there for people to read and get information or disinformation from it. It also means it's fair game for someone else to comment on it and perhaps correct it. Nobody's allowed to criticize what you post about theory because that's called "policing you"? Anybody should just post whatever BS they like?

This thread was essentially criticizing people who do just that! You are like the people this post is targeting... Just putting easy sounding stuff out there - Who cares if it's right or wrong - it's easy - let's not 'nitpick' and please don't police me. :rollno:

You even need to denigrate me in an insulting way.

Sorry, I mixed you up with someone else. I don't like to start fights on here, but I don't have any problem finishing them. This one was my bad - I stuck it to you by mistake.


 
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Unusally, although I've been playing professionally for 40 years and have studied with well known and respected teachers, I've never come across this nitpicking theory police attitude before. You even need to denigrate me in an insulting way. Fine, whatever floats your boat.

Where does the 'big' stuff end and the small begin? There are people who argue that knowing a transposable major scale box pattern and a few cliche licks is all you need...

From reading this thread you give the impression that you know the difference, and a lot more besides. Presumably because you gave it sufficient import that you 1) paid attention in class or 2) took it upon yourself to find out. Yet you've spent maybe 10 times longer that it takes to learn this stuff criticising those that don't know it. Now you seem to be suggesting they don't even bother.

We see people who know nothing critising others for wanting to learn, and on some twisted logic I get that, but someone who purports to know stuff suggesting that someone who might not should not improve their knowledge is absurd. Sounds like a recipe for Secret sauce...

It wasn’t my never my intention to suggest not improving ones knowledge of music & theory. I did suggest that studying the melodic minor as well as the harmonic minor or major modes is a worthwhile thing to do. Having perfect pitch allows me to hear the interval ‘relatively’ easily, (pardon the pun). I learnt classical theory and a little later studied a lot of jazz charts etc, but didn’t really come across all the modes for a while. I was quite busy working, but I did become familiar with the concept of modes. Although a thorough understanding of theory is essential to help further ones progress, it’s important to be able to communicate musical ideas with others and it doesn’t necessarily help if one gets too bogged down in being ‘absolutely correct’ about some technical naming rule. Anyway, any chance you can you hook me up with some of this ‘secret sauce’, I understand it contains carrots, yes?!?
 
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