Jeff Berlin says - Bass Teachers Work Harder at Fixing Learning Concepts That Don't Require Fixing

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Youtube musicians BS??? I didn’t post that.

You are correct - my bad. That was somebody that you were talking to that said that - I got mixed up in shuffle here. I will delete that stuff.

Enough already is fine with me. I see you know plenty and I'm not trying to show off - I just don't understand why you think that's nitpicking and I don't know why you think I'm policing you. Whatever.

:bassist:
 
You are correct - my bad. That was somebody that you were talking to that said that - I got mixed up in shuffle here. I will delete that stuff.

Enough already is fine with me. I see you know plenty and I'm not trying to show off - I just don't understand why you think that's nitpicking and I don't know why you think I'm policing you. Whatever.

:bassist:
Ok, I didn’t mean that you were policing me, just making a reference similar to that possibly non pc expression ‘grammar nazis’. Anyway, happy to draw a line here.....................
 
If you figure out all the combinations yes. What I did was simplify it and systematize it - an abstraction - then it's not hard.
Yes, I stated 84 keys-modes, then I added two more groups of 84 key-modes. My thesis is there is a minimum of 252 scales, not 84, could you explain,where within the historic mode system(s), the melodic minor, and the natural harmonic exist. I am not immune to double or even triple counting.
 
@Mark Ambler, if the secret sauce contains carrots, it might contain onions and celery, (making it a Julia Childs soup base), the carrots are there to improve I-sight, with so many key-modes, one could go blind. (last four bars in a blues song, "I'm blinded by the modal key, blinded by the modal key blues,") Oops, Are blues written with normal scales? Carrots allegedly, help the eye (I), sight, ask the Brits, who explained by RAF pilots could find Axis Power, pilots so quickly, [carrots, he, he], a code word for radar.
I think there's a little tabasco sauce in the secret sauce. :smug:

You know if we keep referring to secret sauce in Music, someone will actually believe there is a secret sauce
 
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could you explain,where within the historic mode system(s), the melodic minor, and the natural harmonic exist.

AFAIK they do not. They are not 'natural scales'. Composers ( I think in the Baroque period but don't quote me on that ) developed them to facilitate composition because of difficulties that arise when using the natural minor - particularly the lack of the leading tone/major 7th, which was a really big deal to them.

Unlike us modern folks, they didn't like sound of the b7 - they thought it was dull and dissonant sounding. So they invented those hybrid scales that preserve the minor quality that they wanted but included the leading tone that they loved. The bebop guys did similar stuff with their scales but for a different reason - they came up with some 8 note 'synthetic' scales: (You can include them in your calculation too...)

Bebop scale - Wikipedia
There are five types of frequently used bebop scales:

  1. the bebop dominant scale
  2. the bebop Dorian scale
  3. the bebop major scale
  4. the bebop melodic minor scale
  5. the bebop harmonic minor scale
Each of these scales has an extra chromatic passing tone. In general, bebop scales consist of traditional scales with an added passing tone placed such that when the scale is begun on a chord tone and on the downbeat, all other chord tones will also fall on downbeats, with the remaining tones in the scale occurring on the upbeat(given that the scale is played ascending or descending; i.e., no intervallic skips are played).

My thesis is there is a minimum of 252 scales, not 84

Yeah well - then go to the Hungarian Minor and the Arabian scale and about 100 other "exotic scales" that I saw listed in a book called "Jazzology" (OK book - not great) and build modes on all of them. You'll end up with plenty more than 252 without doubling.

I saw someplace where somebody did all the math - don't remember at the moment. It comes out to a REALLY BIG number of scales/modes.
 
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Maybe someone here has?

They say that Coltrane carried that book with him all the time. Jaco had a photographic memory - he probably finished it in an hour and knew it all.

I have not read it - it would put me to sleep. Maybe @Drgonzonm has.

The regular 7 modes + melodic and harmonic minor and their modes are PLENTY for me. As a bass player, sure you can use all that stuff but you certainly know you don't have to - and a lot times I think it takes away. I stick very close to home or I mess up. I know a lot more than I can play well.

Ron Carter can play anything, but a lot of times he plays really simply stuff - but perfect execution and feel and a perfect selection of 3 or 4 simple notes. Genius at using space - him and James Garrison.
 
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My holiday reading is going to include
Thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns by Nicolas Slonimsky

Zappa, Jaco and many other great musicians have been said to have read this book.
Maybe someone here has? I have my suspicions:)

They say that Coltrane carried that book with him all the time. Jaco had a photographic memory - he probably finished it in an hour and knew it all.

I have not read it - it would put me to sleep. Maybe @Drgonzonm has.
Send me the book, and I will read under my bridge. (That's where the T beings live).;)
 
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Send me the book, and I will read under my bridge

I don't even have the book. I do have this one:
The Bass Grimoire Complete
https://www.amazon.com/Bass-Grimoire-Complete-Adam-Kadmon/dp/0825821819

I think it has has every scale you can play on a 4 string bass -with fingerboard diagrams together with a little chart that calculates the modes for each scale - like the Neopolitan Minor, the Enigmatic Minor, the Persian Scale and tons of others - if you want to do some calculations, you need that book... Also has a very good intro about theory.

I think Anthony Jackson wrote something like that for his 6 string bass. IDK if it has been published. I read about it years ago.
 
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To me, the term mode should have stuck to using, the white keys on the piano.

I tend to agree on that. I never distinguish between "modes" and "scales" - scales are modes and modes are scales. It's all just scales to me.

Calling one a mode and one a scale is arbitrary - 500 years ago (?) they were very big Ionian fans so they called that the major scale (even though it's not the most "major" - Lydian is) and everything else is "a mode of the major scale".

But if you happen to love Locrian (I do...) or Lydian you could start from there and say Locrian is the major scale and everything is a "mode" of Locrian.

In the diatonic system you've got a collection of 7 notes in a particular order with fixed distances separating them. Start at any point and you can spell a scale that is harmonized in a different way - that's it.

The use of term "mode" as opposed to "scale" and the arbitrary raising of "Major"/Ionian and "Minor"/Aeolian above other modes appears to have caused endless confusion to thousands of musicians and musician wannabes. People really do think that modes are some sort of secret sauce (and the greak names don't help any...)when the whole thing is just simple counting.

Since we agree on the chromatic distances between the notes A,B,C,D,E,F and G, we could just say "The scale starting with A is scale #1" - "The scale starting with F is scale #4" . Nothing to get scared or confused about. (We could also make things easier by using numbers instead of letters to name the notes - but that's a different discussion.)

So that's a new way of teaching music - IDK what @JeffBerlin , would say about that. I think it would be good. Objectively speaking, what do you lose by working that way? I think mostly we would gain - theory would be easier to grasp and we'd get a lot more varied and creative varieties of music: Musicians wouldn't always be worried about "is this major or is this minor - is this allowed - is this bad?" and they wouldn't be scared to death to mess with mystical "incantations" like "Locrian" or "Lydian".

Problem is that after so many hundreds of years of thinking and writing and notating and designating using the tradition terminology, making a change like that would be impossible. We'd have to rip up everything and start all over.

After the French Revolution, they tried to start using a new calendar, based on the decimal system - ten days to a week etc etc. The new government made that the official calendar - it made much more sense - a lot more symmetrical and logical than the traditional calender that we use. Most people in their private lives ignored it completely. For a couple of years the revolutionary zealots stuck with it. But in few years the whole idea disappeared - it was impossible to change the system that was in place, even though the new one made more sense. It's the same reason they never adopted the metric system for most things in the USA and Great Britain even though it's much easier to work with.
 
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Yes, I stated 84 keys-modes, then I added two more groups of 84 key-modes. My thesis is there is a minimum of 252 scales, not 84, could you explain,where within the historic mode system(s), the melodic minor, and the natural harmonic exist.
....


Harmonic Minor is an alteration of Natural Minor, or Aeolian Mode to include a 'correct' (per the dogma of the time) half-step leading tone to make the dominant chord of the minor key Major.
Melodic Minor Descending is the same as the Natural Minor, also identical to the Aeolian mode. Ascending it has an augmented 6th and 7th to make it easier to sing compared to the difficult augmented 2nd between submediant and leading tone in the harmonic minor.
Of course when academics started researching and reviving modal concepts they needed to invent names for the modes of these new scales that were not about when plainsong was de-rigeur. Hence the hyper- and super- prefixes.
There are plenty of others that have even more tenuous links. The 8-tone diminished scale and the 6-tone whole-tone...

...
"The scale starting with A is scale #1" - "The scale starting with F is scale #4" . Nothing to get scared or confused about.
...
So that's a new way of teaching music - IDK what @JeffBerlin , would say about that.
...

Nice idea, except its not new. In the really early church music books, the modes are numbered just like you suggest. 6 modes (no 7th mode - locrian is another academic 'late addition') in two forms each for a total of 12.
 
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Yes, I stated 84 keys-modes, then I added two more groups of 84 key-modes. My thesis is there is a minimum of 252 scales, not 84, could you explain,where within the historic mode system(s), the melodic minor, and the natural harmonic exist. I am not immune to double or even triple counting.

You are overthinking this stuff, and making it way overly complicated. This is a result of holes in your understanding of basic Music Theory. I recommend that you start from the beginning again and fill those holes.
 
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My thesis is there is a minimum of 252 scales, not 84

"The "major" and the "minor" scales, and to a far lesser extent about a dozen 1 or so other scales have kept composers in the West busy for about 500 years now. Let's be generous and say we've really used about 20 different scales/modes.

But based on the Western system of notes (as exemplified by the piano keyboard), there are 1490 ( WUTP - :crying: :rage: :banghead:) possible scales. 2 In other words, with the combined genius of medieval monks through Beethoven through Stravinsky and Coltrane, we've managed to explore roughly 1% of this musical terrain. (Admittedly not all of this terrain is equally musically fertile.)"
All The Scales

All The Scales

https://jimibanez.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/exotic-scales-new-horizons-for-jazz-improvisation.pdf
 
This scope of this subject can daunting for the best of us, but in reality when one starts learning and understanding modes, we find that we may well have already been utilising many of the modes already. I learnt about chords symbols including stuff like C9+11, C7b5 etc, first, and a fair bit later, modes. I was already using the Super Locrian scale over a tritone as a transitory chord, but I didn't know that as what it was named. I guess having studied Piano scales, I was familiar with the sound and to my ear the effect was pleasing, so I used it. In the end, music is sound and although having a thorough knowledge of theory is desirable, it does in no way guarantee that you will produce music. I'm sure there have been many great musicians that have a working knowledge of theory that has been learnt mainly intuitively by ear, so one must not undervalue the importance of ear training, etc.

It is nice to be able to analyse one's own playing, though. I guess a most used list of modes and recorded examples could be useful for someone delving into it fresh, and I would absolutely recommend using the Piano to work out scales and theory as it's so much easier than doing it on the Bass, imo.
 
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I was familiar with the sound and to my ear the effect was pleasing, so I used it. In the end, music is sound and although having a thorough knowledge of theory is desirable, it does in no way guarantee that you will produce music. I'm sure there have been many great musicians that have a working knowledge of theory that has been learnt mainly intuitively by ear, so one must not undervalue the importance of ear training, etc.

This. :thumbsup:

Miles Davis worked a bit with Jimi Hendrix. Miles said that Jimi was completely illiterate musically but he had an ear and a head that allowed him to grasp and play the most complex musical ideas with ease. He would play something tricky and deep and Jimi would nail the whole thing right away and run with it.
 
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This is a result of holes in your understanding of basic Music Theory

Care to explain a bit? He's just doing some simple math. I posted an abstraction up there that systematizes and simplifies it down 7 modes for seven notes making 7 modes for the one major scale. But that's from 30k feet. In terms of the details, there is no arguing the math.
 
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