I think French bows are more difficult to balance than German. The plug came loose on my carbon bow, but, the Snakewood is still performing at an insanely high level. I will get the Carbon bow rehaired soon.
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Double Bass Let’s Compare a Cheap Chinese Bow to a Fine European Bow
- Thread starter CaseyVancouver
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- chinese bow
Regarding bows and other instrument related parts, I think it's fair to consider de-forestation an issue, as is utilization of rare-animal based materials. But these are only one part of the issue. The process of making CF is very environmentally unfriendly, as are the trendy solar cells and lithium-ion batteries that we may be pointing our futures toward. As are fossil fuels and plastics and computer parts and just about anything else we've all grown to depend upon. Ironically many of these things cannot be made in some countries anymore because of their environmental laws, so they are freely made in China, Mexico and other less concerned countries, then imported to the countries that can afford to pay for them. Ethics is a very broad sword that has two edges.
While we were at the Grass Valley festival I experienced a massive bow-hair failure with my 15 month old Chinese "Brazilwood" French ("CBW") bow. Unfortunately all of the hair began pulling out of the frog. I'm guessing either it was the humidity difference (or some other environmental difference), or the frog got hot in the sun and the glue there let loose, but whatever it was all the hair was coming loose and there was no way to produce tension.
There was a double bass luthier there at Grass Valley in the Luthiers' Pavilion and while he was extremely helpful and taught a wonderful free seminar, he was booked up with major double bass related work the whole time that he was there at Grass Valley. But he helped me in a much better way: he helped me pick an inexpensive CF bow to replace my "CBW" bow at a neighboring double bass vendor festival booth. So I very happily came home with this Carbondix *** CF French bow:
Compared to the "CBW" bow, this Carbondix *** CF French bow is noticeably lighter, feeling like it is possibly a little shorter, it is very well balanced, and it seems very sensitive to small holding adjustments. The hair seems a little more aggressive than the white hair on the "CBW" bow. I think I can hear a subtle tone difference but I'm still trying to define that.
I do greatly prefer the weight and feel of my new CF bow and I have been enjoying using it a lot. (That said, I'm very inexperienced with bows, so I don't really consider my observations here anything other than a "NBD" announcement.)
There was a double bass luthier there at Grass Valley in the Luthiers' Pavilion and while he was extremely helpful and taught a wonderful free seminar, he was booked up with major double bass related work the whole time that he was there at Grass Valley. But he helped me in a much better way: he helped me pick an inexpensive CF bow to replace my "CBW" bow at a neighboring double bass vendor festival booth. So I very happily came home with this Carbondix *** CF French bow:
Compared to the "CBW" bow, this Carbondix *** CF French bow is noticeably lighter, feeling like it is possibly a little shorter, it is very well balanced, and it seems very sensitive to small holding adjustments. The hair seems a little more aggressive than the white hair on the "CBW" bow. I think I can hear a subtle tone difference but I'm still trying to define that.
I do greatly prefer the weight and feel of my new CF bow and I have been enjoying using it a lot. (That said, I'm very inexperienced with bows, so I don't really consider my observations here anything other than a "NBD" announcement.)
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Hi all! Several months ago I bought the same kind of bow that started this thread. I wanted to give time to play with it and make my own conclusion about it. I have played finale as my main bow for years and this chinese bow doesn’t come close in how the finale performs. It’s heavy and the curve is weak.
That being said: My student bought one and got a better one. It’s like rolling a dice. To me the wood looks like random ”brazilwood”.
That being said: My student bought one and got a better one. It’s like rolling a dice. To me the wood looks like random ”brazilwood”.
Rehairing the Asian bows make a significant improvement in playability.
Although represented as high quality Mongolian white, I often had trouble bowing them unless using sticky Pops. My local luthier rehaired two of them with his Mongolian black. They now play better.
The luthier said they were not tricky to do although one had some glue holding the wood in. Each rehair cost more than the bow. One Asian carbon bow did come with nice white hair that I have kept on. So two of my three Asian bows got new hair.
The snakewood bow is tip heavy. I rotate it and the others into regular practice. The carbon bow is light, balanced and has decent white hair. The ‘Asian pernambuco’ bow now has black hair and plays beautifully. It is light, balanced and plays almost as good as my German Schicker.
I also have an old German made bow that lost it’s curve over the decades. It has a well worn dark red undercoat & varnish, wood unknown. This bow is super light and plays very well. I recently got Reid Hudson to rehair it, and my local luthier to recurve it. He said it was surprisingly resistant to recurving, but is now good. I got this bow about 1972 and it was ancient even then. This bow is my favourite next to the Schicker. Lightest bow I have, bounces for the fast stuff, balanced and a joy to play. It is in the regular rotation of play. It is an interesting contrast to the snakewood bow.
I find there is a value in having a variety of bows to play.
Although represented as high quality Mongolian white, I often had trouble bowing them unless using sticky Pops. My local luthier rehaired two of them with his Mongolian black. They now play better.
The luthier said they were not tricky to do although one had some glue holding the wood in. Each rehair cost more than the bow. One Asian carbon bow did come with nice white hair that I have kept on. So two of my three Asian bows got new hair.
The snakewood bow is tip heavy. I rotate it and the others into regular practice. The carbon bow is light, balanced and has decent white hair. The ‘Asian pernambuco’ bow now has black hair and plays beautifully. It is light, balanced and plays almost as good as my German Schicker.
I also have an old German made bow that lost it’s curve over the decades. It has a well worn dark red undercoat & varnish, wood unknown. This bow is super light and plays very well. I recently got Reid Hudson to rehair it, and my local luthier to recurve it. He said it was surprisingly resistant to recurving, but is now good. I got this bow about 1972 and it was ancient even then. This bow is my favourite next to the Schicker. Lightest bow I have, bounces for the fast stuff, balanced and a joy to play. It is in the regular rotation of play. It is an interesting contrast to the snakewood bow.
I find there is a value in having a variety of bows to play.
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I got the same bow as in message 1. (Had to wait until march as announced on the szmusic site). Bow was delivered without issues within 30 days.
The weight is NOT 133g+/-1 as advertised, but 149g. I have seen one other feedback where the weight was more than 150g.
The fit of the frog to the octagon is not that great. It lifts off a bit.
The sound is quite good. I would say it is nicer and warmer than my finale, but not as good as my other pernambuco (JD Hill). The finale is easier to play. I use the Chinese bow as a kind of workout bow for slower pieces.
It is absolutely worth the money if you are OK with the weight.
The weight is NOT 133g+/-1 as advertised, but 149g. I have seen one other feedback where the weight was more than 150g.
The fit of the frog to the octagon is not that great. It lifts off a bit.
The sound is quite good. I would say it is nicer and warmer than my finale, but not as good as my other pernambuco (JD Hill). The finale is easier to play. I use the Chinese bow as a kind of workout bow for slower pieces.
It is absolutely worth the money if you are OK with the weight.
The difference reveals itself when you start talking sautillé, collé, balzato, martelé, and other off the string strokes. Then there is the articulation needed in things like the scherzo from Beethoven 5 or the finale of Mendelssohn 3. There’s also just plain volume and tone. For highly nuanced bowing you can’t beat a master crafted bow. A Chinese bow can get her done but a master crafted bow will shine.
There is a reason why people spend lots of money - 30 times what your Chinese bow costs, and more - and it's nothing to do with brand or ego or show. Nobody knows what my bow cost, unless they ask, and even then I don't always say. There is no way any cheap bow I have ever used, held, looked at, comes anywhere close.
Very true, but how’s a fella supposed to learn to appreciate the differences, nuances and develop personal preference when the time comes for a finer bow?
I think they serve a purpose and are worlds better than the Glasser bows that were ubiquitous in the past as a starter bow.
I think they serve a purpose and are worlds better than the Glasser bows that were ubiquitous in the past as a starter bow.
Of course I am looking at these things a bit more in terms of working with someone like Scodanibbio's ideas, but, I was totally in agreement with you until I got the two bows I have.
I was just going to go all in on a fine bow, but, I am really into these two even still.
I have rehaired the carbon fiber bow and it is much better. I wouldn't say these are as good as master crafted bows, I'd say they don't hold you back like the earlier cheap bows do.
I was just going to go all in on a fine bow, but, I am really into these two even still.
I have rehaired the carbon fiber bow and it is much better. I wouldn't say these are as good as master crafted bows, I'd say they don't hold you back like the earlier cheap bows do.
This is all very true. I think you can really get precision when you spend the money. However, the bow strokes @koricancowboy mentions were just not possible without spending that kind of money with the entry level Brazilwood sticks that were $200-300 when I started. Now, with even less you can something that will do it.
Also, you can "get lucky" with a cheap snakewood bow the same way you can "get lucky" with a factory bass. These makers are at least starting with materials that can get the job done! A master bow maker can't make one of those nasty old sticks grab & bounce, a factory bow maker at least has a chance with snakewood.
Carbon is fairly easy to get to perform correctly, less easy to get a tone you want.
The snakewood bow I got with the first rate rehair is a pretty solid bow.
Still, nothing is going to be as good as great bow from a great maker.
Also, you can "get lucky" with a cheap snakewood bow the same way you can "get lucky" with a factory bass. These makers are at least starting with materials that can get the job done! A master bow maker can't make one of those nasty old sticks grab & bounce, a factory bow maker at least has a chance with snakewood.
Carbon is fairly easy to get to perform correctly, less easy to get a tone you want.
The snakewood bow I got with the first rate rehair is a pretty solid bow.
Still, nothing is going to be as good as great bow from a great maker.
Based on Damon's post I ordered both a French and a German carbon fiber bow from VingoBow. The French bow arrived last week and I'm amazed at how easy it is to play. At the tip, I drop a little arm weight into it but it's almost imperceptible to me. The sound is loud, focused, and bright while staying focused when playing pianissimo. Bouncing is a breeze and bow changes are effortless. My past bows have been DeLuccia, Balint, Kun, and the like. Like Damon, I'm amazed at the functionality of this stick, and at this price, no beginning bow user needs to struggle with a terrible bow. The German bow will show up tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing how that one works as well.
The model number of these bows is 200BG (German) and 200BF (French).
Yeah, and once I got pro rehair on both of these I pretty much stopped looking at fine bows. I may start looking again someday. Between the snakewood and the carbon a lot of ground is covered.
How much improvement did you experience with the professional re-hair? The OEM hair feels pretty darn good.
Well, I use black hair so it made a big difference. The OEM hair wasn't bad - I played it down before rehairing!
I wanted to try a snakewood bow to see (a) how it sounded on gut strings and (b) how my hand would handle a heavier bow. So... I ordered one of these for $90! Different style Strong France/German style Snakewood double bass bow 3/4 | eBay (the German bow with black hair and the Viennese style frog)...
And I am blown away! Loud, round, articulate. Fairly well balanced' decent fittings etc; sounds as good (if not as focused)as my Prochownik and louder than my Arcus.
So Monday I am going to rehearsal with $400 Vingo Bouncy (imitation Arcus) and a $90 snakewood and see what happens, but right now, I would take both these bows to any event.
And I am blown away! Loud, round, articulate. Fairly well balanced' decent fittings etc; sounds as good (if not as focused)as my Prochownik and louder than my Arcus.
So Monday I am going to rehearsal with $400 Vingo Bouncy (imitation Arcus) and a $90 snakewood and see what happens, but right now, I would take both these bows to any event.
What I found about the cheap Chinese "Pernambuco" bow I bought as backup, was that the stick wasn't very strong. It takes minimal force on the nut to tighten the hair and even moderate bow pressure collapses the stick.
So, it is not very good for playing at volume.
The hair isn't great either, but I'm sure there's stronger sticks at this price range.
So, it is not very good for playing at volume.
The hair isn't great either, but I'm sure there's stronger sticks at this price range.
As the op of this thread I’d like to add getting on 5 years later I still use my $65 Asian bow in regular rotation with bows that are almost 100 times as valuable.
It has been rehaired, which surprisingly did not make a great deal of difference to how it plays. It compares very favourably to my best bows. It weighs 144.6 grams, which is heavier than my usual favourite weight of 136, but that does not appear to matter as the bow is so nicely balanced.
Asian instrument buying online can be a crap shoot…
Be aware Asian sellers often advertise what they think you the buyer wants to hear, even when obviously not true. Prices are tricky too as one auction item I bought for $200 is now only available at $600 BIN. Later it may be listed for $200 again. I bought a wonderful viola from Shanghai that was advertised with ebony fittings. The fingerboard is actually painted hard wood. (I have a top quality fingerboard for my local luthier to put on) But the viola is so nice I later bought a violin and bow from the same shop, regardless of the previous fib about ebony. The violin and bow arrived recently, and are fantastic.
Both violin and viola have the maker’s label inside, which I like. I wish the Asian bow makers would stamp their names also. They do not have a grasp of Western marketing concepts.
To sum up my recent experiences I would say the Asian products often are a very good value. ‘You get what you pay for’ still rings true and you won’t get a $6000 bow for $100. But you may get a totally decent one.
It has been rehaired, which surprisingly did not make a great deal of difference to how it plays. It compares very favourably to my best bows. It weighs 144.6 grams, which is heavier than my usual favourite weight of 136, but that does not appear to matter as the bow is so nicely balanced.
Asian instrument buying online can be a crap shoot…
Be aware Asian sellers often advertise what they think you the buyer wants to hear, even when obviously not true. Prices are tricky too as one auction item I bought for $200 is now only available at $600 BIN. Later it may be listed for $200 again. I bought a wonderful viola from Shanghai that was advertised with ebony fittings. The fingerboard is actually painted hard wood. (I have a top quality fingerboard for my local luthier to put on) But the viola is so nice I later bought a violin and bow from the same shop, regardless of the previous fib about ebony. The violin and bow arrived recently, and are fantastic.
Both violin and viola have the maker’s label inside, which I like. I wish the Asian bow makers would stamp their names also. They do not have a grasp of Western marketing concepts.
To sum up my recent experiences I would say the Asian products often are a very good value. ‘You get what you pay for’ still rings true and you won’t get a $6000 bow for $100. But you may get a totally decent one.
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Well, the $90 snakewood was a hit at rehearsal (opera highlights). The section guessed it priced between $500-$1500 and everyone thought it was a pretty responsive bow with a big sound. After 3 hrs though I'm going back to my Arcus. The weight difference -- and I think the physics of how vibrations are carried into the tendonitis-suffering wrist --- just aren't worth it. I do plan to use it at home for practice... like lifting weights!