Stage volume vs PA

[kev451]

If you are "perfect" sound wise, there wouldn't be any problems. Just saying.

If you are "perfect" sound wise, there wouldn't be any problems. Just saying.

Funny you “perfect” in quotations as if I stated I’m perfect. Sigh...the usual sarcasm with no real advice thanks anyway.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Funny you “perfect” in quotations as if I stated I’m perfect. Sigh...the usual sarcasm with no real advice thanks anyway.

There was advice, and there wasnt any sarcasm. But, whatever dude. Everyone here gave you great advice, but you dont want it. Goodbye.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Im not sure if you read where i stated that after each soundcheck i have someone pick up my bass and play so that i see where i am. Im extremely aware of my overall tone and volume and where I sit relative to things. I also stated that I sit below volume wise to my rhythm guitar players volume. Example let’s say he’s at 9 I’m at 7 I try and stay below him. Punch can also come a lower register as well. I’m using a Geddy Lee with a Sadowsky onboard preamp which RARELY gets boosted. The pups are stock. The bass has plenty of highs. I’m mostly just giving it a touch of low end.

9 and 7 mean nothing.
There is no correlation between where the knob points and how much power you are running.
And to compare knob positions on two different amps?

The pointers only help you get the settings back to a place where you want them to be next time.
Nothing is calibrated.

The most useful information that a knob will give you is:
When it’s all the way down, you can’t go any lower.
When it’s all the way up, you can’t go any higher.

I can do that without knobs. Just can’t see it from a few feet away.

I once took the knobs off the guitar players amp and put them back on in the wrong positions.
He absolutely refused to adjust them for the correct sound/level.
They are pointed where they are always pointed so his amp must be broken.

 

[Stumbo]

OP try having your guitarists stand their amps on end, so the two speakers are oriented one above, one below, rather than side to side. And then have them point the amps away from the sound desk.

And tilted back towards their head.

Actually, you should be able to put the guitar players' amps in front of them, tilted back, like stage monitors and let the FOH handle the mix, creating less stage volume instead of more.

How you hear it, on stage, is not the way to determine how good or bad your group sounds FOH.

 

[Stumbo]

OP, where in New Jersey are you? Maybe a local TBr get out to one of your gigs.

Btw, thank you for your service.

 

[kev451]

There was advice, and there wasnt any sarcasm. But, whatever dude. Everyone here gave you great advice, but you dont want it. Goodbye.

Really there was advice ? All I saw was if you were perfect...that being said everyone else had offered try this or try that have you thought of this you can’t with that...see my a Don’t get upset because I merely replied to your comment. You have yourself a great night also.

 

[kev451]

9 and 7 mean nothing.
There is no correlation between where the knob points and how much power you are running.
And to compare knob positions on two different amps?

The pointers only help you get the settings back to a place where you want them to be next time.
Nothing is calibrated.

The most useful information that a knob will give you is:
When it’s all the way down, you can’t go any lower.
When it’s all the way up, you can’t go any higher.

I can do that without knobs. Just can’t see it from a few feet away.

I once took the knobs off the guitar players amp and put them back on in the wrong positions.
He absolutely refused to adjust them for the correct sound/level.
They are pointed where they are always pointed so his amp must be broken.

I see your point. Touché

 

[Remoman]

This all presumes that the PA is good quality, set up in good location, and purpose built to well reproduce sound for all instruments and vocals, and even at that, because of that, it's not going to be as good as purpose built bass and guitar amplification. Remember the proper industry term is "live sound reinforcement". There is something to be said to get a decent stage sound for the musicians and that will likely cover an near field area in front of the stage in the area before the PA starts pushing things out towards the rest of the house. And unless you get that great PA and sound guy, who's going to walk around and adjust based on the total sound in different areas, live with people there, it's going to sound much different in different areas of the venue. Much like what @Bassbeater and @HolmeBass were talking about.

But as to the OP's original need, yeah, getting a good stage sound has it's merits, but I doubt bigger guitar cabs are going to change the sound in a positive way for the the crowd. You're probably better off turning down like @Bassbeater said.

 

[Pulverizor]

Do they elevate their combo's when you play live?

I don't think it's a good idea to compare the acoustics of a practise room to those of on stage, you'll never capture the same sound.

 

[JKos]

OP, what happens when you try to get a good stage "mix" without the PA on?

that being said everyone else had offered try this or try that have you thought of this you can’t with that

Most of which you have dismissed as your tone not possibly being part of the overall issue. That's where you are rubbing people the wrong way. Every time someone has suggested you do something to adjust, you say you are fine and not the problem.

- John

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Really there was advice ? All I saw was if you were perfect...that being said everyone else had offered try this or try that have you thought of this you can’t with that...see my a Don’t get upset because I merely replied to your comment. You have yourself a great night also.

Alright

I told you to turn down, and turn the bass down. That's advice. I also said that if your total sound was perfect, you wouldn't have any problems. Because the straight utter truth of the matter is that those small speakered guitar amps can hold their own against any live drums if you weren't there. By themselves. And there's two of them. That puts you at the common denominator position in the equation. Any idiot can see that. And it seemed to me like you were the one who was getting upset. Because no one is agreeing with your idea that getting bigger amps is a better solution than you turning down. But, like I also said...whatever dude. Keep doing what you're doing, and keep getting the same results.

 

[Bassassin31]

Now that I think about it, I've done gigs with a guitar player who used an ancient tweed combo with a 15. It was 30 or 40 watts and could blow the back door off a bar. Still, far less watts than OP's talking about.

My quilter steelaire combo for my pedal steel has a 15 in it. Sounds killer when I piggy-back my RS210 Bass cab on it

 

[Stumbo]

Do you have any recordings?

 

[bumperbass]

On stage amps aren’t supposed to compliment the PA. On stage amps are simply monitors for the musicians to hear themselves and send signal to the front of house engineer. If the crowd can’t hear your guitars, your sound engineer is at fault. If your guitarists are playing 210 (probably 212), 200 watt combos, they have PLENTY. My lead guitarist plays a 15 watt 112 and my frontman plays a 5 watt 110. I use a 500 watt 212 or a 200 watt 115. We play bars, clubs, and festivals ranging from 400-10,000 people. Never an issue with anyone being heard.

^^^This. It doesn't matter what speakers they use. They need SMALLER amps.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

View attachment 3125245 So, I’m in a band where we have the constant argument of getting better cabs to push stage volume(me pushing this) vs them using Marshall combo amps to push stage volume to push the bands on stage volume(them). Now this is what I’m running

Tech21 Landmark 300w bass head
Mesa Boogie 2X10, 1x15 Geddy Lee MIJ with Sadowsky onboard preamp.
Pedalboard-DG supersymnetry compressor, Tech21Qstrip and Sans Amp paradriver.

1st guitar player Marshall 2x10 combo

2nd Peavy 2x10 combo both push 200watts.

I think that they should get Amps which at least have 15” speakers with more power to match my own. (I’m not overbearingly loud). I’ve played in bands where full cabs were used and combos where bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now.

But live at each show afterwards everyone always compliments me on my sound but always say it lacks guitar punch and depth. Which has been my same point.

Each time I bring it up they just say why bother when the PA will just push their sound...which well apparently that doesn’t happen.

The places we play can hold anywhere from 100-350 people and usually have good draws. Any advice you guys can share to help to get them to understand that stage volume is important as well as amps being used. Here is a picture of the volume setting on my head.

 

[Blaze Barlow]

I’ve never run at full volume lol, usually I’m at half way on the head and control my volume via my bass. I think their combo amps lack power.

are you saying that you cant hear guitars well enough on stage or the guitars are not loud enough in the PA..?..most shows I remember..its never a problem hearing the guitars out front..in most cases the guitars are at enough volume that they arent even in the PA..other stage mics are picking up the guitars..so a certain amount of guitar is getting into the FOH mix anyway..I still am not sure whether you think the sound is not right on stage..or in the PA..or both..and..if you personally arent hearing enough guitar..add some in your stage monitor..guitars are more often too much on stage rather than not enough..not having extra loud guitars on stage to kill your hearing is a blessing..not a curse..

 

[Philonius]

Oh my Kev, you really should consider that if virtually Everyone here is giving you the same advice, there is probably something to it.

But that’s not why I’m here- I’m here to compliment you on the NYC subway token attached to the front of your amp.


Stylin’!!!!

 

[Blaze Barlow]

I recommend next rehearsal they use the same combos they use on stage and you all work to balance the sound and volume in the small room. If you keep the settings(take photos if you have to), then using the classic recipe of letting the sound crew mic and DI everything and getting your sound into the house system should give you guys a stellar live sound with a very short sound check. Good luck!.

what you say is basically true..but the big difference is that the positioning of the speaker boxes at rehersal is usually never the same as on a live stage..at live performances the boxes all face outward..this cant always be reproduced at a rehersal space..so.. room size..equipment placement..and accoustics are always going to be different..

 

[Chango Malo]

I should have stated that, I’ve played in bands where full cabs and combos with bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now. I’m fully aware of how sound works.

The places we play have pretty good sound guys. I just my guys to push the same power as I do on stage. The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.

well, somethin' ain't right, bubba. If in three years with a whole buncha slider monkeys and different PA's all sound bad in the same way i'm goin' out onna limb and say FOH ain't the problem. I'll even guess it ain't the guitar volume either.

I’ve mentioned what you’ve said also, that in theory they should be louder or capable of it. But I cant believe that EVERY place we have played in almost 3 years has had a poopy sound guy. I take care to not be loud as I just want to be punchy and sit right in the mix with the drums. I have active basses and rarely go full active live I run them passive more often than not. The times I have I’ve lowered the volume of my bass to compensate for going active.

You haven't had a bad sound guy at every place you've played for the past 3 years. Have the two guitar players tilt back their amps so they're pointed at their ears and then turn down until you can hear the guitars. Let the PA do the heavy lifting. Your audience will thank you.

 

[James B]

I'm far from an expert, but usually I:

• set guitar (Blues Jr and Princeton Reverb Reissue) and bass (Traynor SB500 with 210 cab) amps to sweet spot for tone that each player is after, make minor adjustments to their volume and location / position / tilt to achieve desired stage mix, then mic the guitar combos and mic or DI the bass to the PA;
• run keys, vocals and drums to the PA;
• adjust stage monitor levels so each player gets their desired mix; then,
• mix the mains for output to the venue.

When I get it right, then:

• stage mix is balanced and stage volume levels low enough that I can talk to another player without yelling;
• everyone in the venue can hear the music loud enough to rock out without complaint; and,
• no one in the venue gets hit with laser beam volume from stage amps.

That seems to work for 40 - 400 seat venues, but - like I said - I'm far from expert ...