Stage volume vs PA

#101
Personally...I like my rig to be able to carry a med sized venue on it's own merit...just in case the venue PA isn't capable of doing the job for me. Not that I would over-ride the on site sound tech...it's just that a lot of venues I've played in...the sound tech often wants me to support the PA and not the other way around. A quick glance at their desk...the EQ slope often cuts bass. Probably to save their amp and drivers. So I know that my amp / cabs can carry the room with punch...clarity and depth without pushing the PA too hard. Some sites have ample set ups...others...leave it to the bassist.
 
#102
kev451 said:
View attachment 3125245 So, I’m in a band where we have the constant argument of getting better cabs to push stage volume(me pushing this) vs them using Marshall combo amps to push stage volume to push the bands on stage volume(them). Now this is what I’m running

Tech21 Landmark 300w bass head
Mesa Boogie 2X10, 1x15 Geddy Lee MIJ with Sadowsky onboard preamp.
Pedalboard-DG supersymnetry compressor, Tech21Qstrip and Sans Amp paradriver.

1st guitar player Marshall 2x10 combo

2nd Peavy 2x10 combo both push 200watts.

I think that they should get Amps which at least have 15” speakers with more power to match my own. (I’m not overbearingly loud). I’ve played in bands where full cabs were used and combos where bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now.

But live at each show afterwards everyone always compliments me on my sound but always say it lacks guitar punch and depth. Which has been my same point.

Each time I bring it up they just say why bother when the PA will just push their sound...which well apparently that doesn’t happen.

The places we play can hold anywhere from 100-350 people and usually have good draws. Any advice you guys can share to help to get them to understand that stage volume is important as well as amps being used. Here is a picture of the volume setting on my head.
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+1 what everybody else has said. Stage volume is stage volume - so you can hear yourself that's all. Your minimum stage volume is determined by the drummer cos that's acoustic, can't turn it down. U need a rig which will stand up with that (you have plenty). The guitarists can get their stage sound either from their amps (they have plenty also) or from foldback monitors. Speaker sizes don't come into that at all. The audience don't even hear your stage volume unless it is a very small venue or if you are way too loud. They hear the pa (I'm assuming the guitarists mike up their cabs or go DI). If the audience are saying the sound is unbalanced you need to get a sound guy who knows what he's doing, or one of youse learn to do it. Hey I just thought - this wasn't clickbait was it?
 
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#103
kev451 said:
Because this has been an issue that had been on going for about 3 years. Now mind you the moment they use full cabs we don’t have this issue...we have played several shows where bands have shared gear and they have had to use full cabs and heads and guess what we sound great...

and I DONT turn up when they use full cabs. But then the moment they go back to combos, we are back to square one.

And while some sound guys are either learning or don’t know I cant attribute this to EVERY one of them. That’s an unfair generalization.

So I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with you.
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I wonder if you have considered the possibility that the issue is not that your guitarists are too quiet, but rather that your bass is too loud. If you are playing with a loud stage volume, it makes the sound guy's job extremely difficult. It might even make them give up trying to make it work. If you have a full range FOH system, EVERYBODY on stage should be playing at the lowest possible volume to be able to hear themselves play. And if you have any sort of a decent monitoring system (either your own stage monitor, or more ideally, your own IEM), then you don't even need any stage volume at all. Any of your sound that bleeds out from the stage to the audience is just messing up the mix for people who are close enough to hear it. And the louder you play, the more people are getting a bad mix because of your desire to be loud on stage.
I recently saw a fantastic band that had great sound, and the bassist was using a 7-string bass that went all the way down to F#. He was using a little Hartke 112 combo amp on stage just to hear himself. I'm sure he sounded like crap on stage. But from the audience, he sounded fantastic.

Here is another band I recently saw. (photo below) They were plenty loud and sounded awesome. And they had zero amps on stage. The only instrument heard on the stage was the drums. Everything else was direct to FOH only.
I am sorry, but I have to agree with others who are saying that if you think your guitarists need bigger amps, then you have the wrong idea. If you could get them to use 5 watt amps, you should be happy about that. You'd have less of a need for hearing protection, and the sound guys will be able to easily dial in a great sounding mix. The only time you need to be loud is when FOH is underpowered for the venue and you need to supplement it to be heard. But when that unfortunate situation happens, some of the audience will hear good sound, and many people won't. It will depend highly on where they are in relation to the stage.
20180320_225516.jpg
 
#105
lz4005 said:
Now that I think about it, I've done gigs with a guitar player who used an ancient tweed combo with a 15. It was 30 or 40 watts and could blow the back door off a bar. Still, far less watts than OP's talking about.
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My SO has a ‘65 Deluxe Fender Reverb that pushes 22 watts through a 12” speaker. It’s a very loud amp when dialed up.
 
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#107
kev451 said:
I should have stated that, I’ve played in bands where full cabs and combos with bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now. I’m fully aware of how sound works.

The places we play have pretty good sound guys. I just my guys to push the same power as I do on stage. The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.
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As a sound guy, I'd have to say that in rooms holding 100-350 people you will already have way too much volume coming from your backline (200w guitar amps aren't loud enough? Seriously?) and if I were doing your sound I'd probably be looking for my earplugs. Ideally your backline volume should match the your drum kit and the sound reinforcement should be done by the PA. As has already been said having larger diameter speakers will not make guitar amps louder anyway.
 
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#109
Best sounding guitar I've run sound for was a small Marshall Combo 40-50 watts with 1 -12". perfect stage volume and great FOH mix[this was for 6 band festival with about 10k watts of EV for FOH], even better than 8x12 Marshall stack.

Most of the time I ask Guitars to turn down, sometimes I ask them to turn up. Best sound is when they are comfortable with stage volume and I can crank FOH.

Just remember the louder the stage volume the muddier the FOH mix and quality goes down. You get sound bleeding into all the mics and less control.

I just saw a post that said the only thing that matters is FOH, I agree mostly, but the band has to hear themselves to perform at their best, so stage mix is a crucial component of a killer show.
 
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#110
The heavier rock band that I'm in started losing gigs and not being asked back to a couple of our regular haunts about 2 years ago. One or two venues you think "fair enough, they just don't want us" but it happened more and more. Then the drummer's boyfriend (who has been to every gig) said he wasn't coming anymore, we're too loud.

See, about 3 years ago we seriously upgraded our pa system and started micing drums and putting everything through the PA. What we hadn't done was correspondingly cut stage volume. We were just twice as loud. D'oh!

Now:
Drummer hits as hard or as soft as she wants, rather than full on volumegorilla.
Guitarist went from a Vox AC30 to an AC5 and recently to a Vox modellng head with a class d power amp and DI.
Other Guitarist went from a Blackstar 2x12" to a Blackstar 1x12" and a DI on his pedal board.
I went from 1200W and 2x12" to either 600W and one or occasionally none.
All the amps are now stage right and left pointed across like side fills.

We've started getting gigs again! We're about the volume we were when we had the speakers-on-sticks, vocals only PA system but the mix is so much better, our post-gig tinnitus has gone and we've got a lot less gear to carry. We've essentially swapped three massive stage amps and everything that went with that for now carrying a subwoofer and a few extra mics.
 
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#111
fauxtoe said:
This is an interesting topic considering how many bands are moving away from a traditional backline in favor of an ampless or isolation type of setup to keep stage volume to an absolute minimum. At the last church service I played our worship pastor was using what couldn't have been more than a 15w guitar amp. He had it mic'd and turned to the side, far away from any walls, and we still had problem with it bleeding past a good PA system. He took it one more level and did his best to try and surround it with some isolation and that did the trick. The absolute worse thing I can think of is trying to add MORE volume to a situation where there needs to be less volume and better EQ'ing. Let the PA do the work if it's capable. If they're trying to run the amps into an area where it breaks up but it's too loud overall, then I highly suggest getting some isolation shields to try and tame it down.
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That’s something we can also try thanks for the idea!
 
#113
Kro said:
Well, unfortunately I can't make it up there this Saturday, though I'm booked there next month. If you're doing the main stage, we can compare notes on the sound tech/room afterwards. ;)
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Of course I know they run a backline I believe the bass cab is a 4x10 GK. Let me know when you are headed there I’ll try and make it up there it’s about an hour away from where I’m at.
 
#114
xnewyorka said:
I wonder if you have considered the possibility that the issue is not that your guitarists are too quiet, but rather that your bass is too loud. If you are playing with a loud stage volume, it makes the sound guy's job extremely difficult. It might even make them give up trying to make it work. If you have a full range FOH system, EVERYBODY on stage should be playing at the lowest possible volume to be able to hear themselves play. And if you have any sort of a decent monitoring system (either your own stage monitor, or more ideally, your own IEM), then you don't even need any stage volume at all. Any of your sound that bleeds out from the stage to the audience is just messing up the mix for people who are close enough to hear it. And the louder you play, the more people are getting a bad mix because of your desire to be loud on stage.
I recently saw a fantastic band that had great sound, and the bassist was using a 7-string bass that went all the way down to F#. He was using a little Hartke 112 combo amp on stage just to hear himself. I'm sure he sounded like crap on stage. But from the audience, he sounded fantastic.

Here is another band I recently saw. (photo below) They were plenty loud and sounded awesome. And they had zero amps on stage. The only instrument heard on the stage was the drums. Everything else was direct to FOH only.
I am sorry, but I have to agree with others who are saying that if you think your guitarists need bigger amps, then you have the wrong idea. If you could get them to use 5 watt amps, you should be happy about that. You'd have less of a need for hearing protection, and the sound guys will be able to easily dial in a great sounding mix. The only time you need to be loud is when FOH is underpowered for the venue and you need to supplement it to be heard. But when that unfortunate situation happens, some of the audience will hear good sound, and many people won't. It will depend highly on where they are in relation to the stage.View attachment 3125747
Click to expand...


Usually volume wise I try and come in below my rhythm guitar player. After soundcheck I’ll hand someone my bass and have them play along with the rhythm guitar player while I stand off stage where the audience would be to make sure I’m not louder than anyone. I do this at pretty much every show to ensure I’m not over anyone...
 
#115
Can we start at the music. What suits the tune?
Can your group play the same tune at different volumes. Can each player adjust their touch to deliver dynamics that propel the meaning of song?
That’s the thing.
Tears for Fears broke the airwaves with their hits done studio multi tracked. They came to the US and discovered their stage show was a big fail. Somewhere in the Midwest they were staying in a Holiday Inn. They went to the bar and heard a quartet fronted by a woman vocalist. They realized that they, Tears for Fears, didn’t know how to play together. They did a 180 and learned their craft. They actually included that lady singer in their next album.

All this is a long winded way of saying is everyone listening to the sound of the whole tune? It can be too easy for players to just listen to themselves. This is hoping that the soundman will balance the band. Old school is for the band to be balanced if the PA suddenly failed. :) Old school necessitated musicians keeping the balance. Imagine B3 organ, rhythm section and horns with just vocals through a Shure Vocal Master!!!!! They had to self balance. They had to listen across the group and infer how it sounded out front.
 
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#117
kev451 said:
Because this has been an issue that had been on going for about 3 years. Now mind you the moment they use full cabs we don’t have this issue...we have played several shows where bands have shared gear and they have had to use full cabs and heads and guess what we sound great...

and I DONT turn up when they use full cabs. But then the moment they go back to combos, we are back to square one.

And while some sound guys are either learning or don’t know I cant attribute this to EVERY one of them. That’s an unfair generalization.

So I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with you.
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Well that's just because you have got so darn loud on stage that the audience are listening to your stage sound not the pa. You need to get a set of those ear defenders they use with chainsaws
 
#119
Coolhandjjl said:
Most guitar guys I work with use 25 watt combo amps. One guy told me the only time he needed a 50 watter was when he played on a huge stage at Summerfest (huge music fest with huge stages). The PA guy will mic 'em and take care of the rest. If the crowd can't hear the guitars, it's the PA guys fault pure and simple.

Bass players need about 10x more of what the guitarists have, so with you at 300 watts, you are barely/not quite there with 2 guitarists running at 25 watts each. You'd be better with at least 500 watts, but it also depends on your style of music, the efficiency of cab, and other variables.

For good stage presence and front row sound, each guitar guy runs a 25 watt combo, and you run at least 500 watts as a combo or stack.
The PA guy will take over from there.
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Dead right. Most guitarists will go for a small amp so they can crank it harder for drive. Different considerations from bass where the worry is farting out an overloaded cab
 
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