well I did yeah, and my apologies if I missed something, but to me if you are saying you get complaints when the stage amps are smaller but not when they are bigger then one of two things - either the bigger amps are getting more signal to the pa (which they shouldn't be, as it's just as easy to mic up a small amp as a big one - some would say easier) or the audience are hearing the stage sound. Can't be anything else. Didn't mean to upset you, just that's how it looks to me
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Stage volume vs PA
- Thread starter kev451
- Start date
something doesn't seem right here. i used to play with a guitarist who used an old 100 watt ampeg V4 (rumor has it these are actually 120 watts) with a 4x12 cab. he was louder than i was when he turned the volume to 3 or 4 and i was playing a 1000 watt head turned up to 7 with an 18" cab and a 2x10. at 200 watts and turned up to 6 he could have blown the doors off the room, and they could have heard him blocks away - literally. i've never played with a guitarist using 100 watts and a 4x10 or better that couldn't get louder than i could, and i play with massive attack although no gain.
I think you're asking the wrong question in the original post. If I understand correctly, maybe the real question is "how can I get the band to hear the other musicians onstage?"
Have you asked for more guitar in your monitors? You literally don't need amps at all onstage. I personally don't even bring a head/cab to gigs anymore. With the right signal processing, the guitars don't need amps either. What you have is a monitoring issue--if you can't hear the other musicians, you don't have the right stage monitoring solution.
Have you asked for more guitar in your monitors? You literally don't need amps at all onstage. I personally don't even bring a head/cab to gigs anymore. With the right signal processing, the guitars don't need amps either. What you have is a monitoring issue--if you can't hear the other musicians, you don't have the right stage monitoring solution.
With a big act like this, the amps are often offstage, but they still run through amps. Maybe not--but often they're just hidden from audience view.
Something that might help is posting what kinds of amps the guitarists use, and what effects. If they're solid state amps and they use effects for their overdrive/distortion sounds, then this is really an issue with them needing to dial in a better sound. If they're using tube amps and getting their overdrive/distortion from the amp, then that's where a smaller amp would be more useful.
This is one of the reasons that modeling amps and pedalboards are becoming more popular. Guitarists can dial in the sound that they want and then use the amp as a flat monitor for stage volume.
If you had a live recording that could help too. Unfortunately there isn't really enough information to be that helpful, so people are jumping to conclusions.
This is one of the reasons that modeling amps and pedalboards are becoming more popular. Guitarists can dial in the sound that they want and then use the amp as a flat monitor for stage volume.
If you had a live recording that could help too. Unfortunately there isn't really enough information to be that helpful, so people are jumping to conclusions.
Basically how can it be that during soundcheck things seem fine, a bit thin on the guitar side but ok, then live it turns into something else...this is basically where I’m at.
It's difficult to answer this question without additional information.
What kind of music does your band play?
What specific guitars and amps are your guitarists using?
What does your stage setup look like?
Do you have any recordings or videos of your band playing?
I would bet that during soundcheck there are fewer people in the venue. Things change when people come in because bodies absorb sound. Also after even a few minutes your ears fatigue from the stage volume and you're hearing things differently. Ask from the stage for your monitor mix to be adjusted.
Yep! This should be a national day of mourn!
Hi kev451
When your guitarists don 't get a good live sound out of their rigs…
1) Change the guitarists
2) Fire the drummer
3) get better (not louder) rigs
4) Don 't start a volume war (you will loose it)
5) maybe hire a competent guy, who takes care of your FOH sound
Wise(b)ass
Temperature, Humidity, People(Sound absorbers)
-this is why is it so important to leave the sound management in the hands of the sound person, they can adjust for things on the fly.
Anything remotely worthy of being called a PA should be able to push a guitar signal volume loud enough to cause serious discomfort to any normal person. So if the guitars seem too low out front, and this is a consistent problem throughout multiple venues, I would suspect two things -
1)the guitar amps are loud enough and they're beaming straight out to the mixing console, so the sound engineer ends up pulling them down in the PA which results in low guitar levels everywhere except the "power alley" between the stage and the FOH PA console.
2)The tone of the guitar amps are set to sound great practicing in the bedroom because they haven't been using those amps at band practice. Keep in mind that band practice is as much about making sure the band sounds good as it is about making sure everyone's playing the right notes at the right time. Sure, it's inconvenient, but you really want to practice using as much of the same equipment as you're going to use live as you reasonably can.
So........... here's what I'd do. Have the guitarists bring their rigs to practice. Have them set up their amps either tilted back or on stands so that they're firing more at ear level, less at ankle level. Go through your set, keep the volumes reasonable, and adjust tone until you're hearing good things. You'll likely end up with tones that don't sound so great on their own, probably a lot more mids than you're used to. You've got two guitarists, so you'll probably want to work their tones so that they're sufficiently different to be distinct in the mix - one with a bit more mids and less high treble, one with a bit less mids and more high treble. This is a formula that occurs naturally in the classic guitarist a - Les Paul/humbuckers, guitarist b - Strat/single coil situation. It doesn't take much of a tone difference to accomplish this - the two guitar tones don't have to sound drastically different, just a bit.
Make notes of all the knob settings you come up with.
At the gig, you're probably going to make some amp adjustments for the venue, but try to stay as close to the practice settings as possible. Also, it's best to set up the guitar amps such that they're not firing straight out at the audience. From the side is great if you've got one guitarist on each side of the stage, but with two guitarists on the same side that doesn't usually work well 'cause one guy's a lot farther from his amp. in that situation, I'd say along the back facing forward, but in both cases tilted back for sure.
Let the PA carry the guitar volume for the venue. I guarantee you even the weakest PA can handle it.
1)the guitar amps are loud enough and they're beaming straight out to the mixing console, so the sound engineer ends up pulling them down in the PA which results in low guitar levels everywhere except the "power alley" between the stage and the FOH PA console.
2)The tone of the guitar amps are set to sound great practicing in the bedroom because they haven't been using those amps at band practice. Keep in mind that band practice is as much about making sure the band sounds good as it is about making sure everyone's playing the right notes at the right time. Sure, it's inconvenient, but you really want to practice using as much of the same equipment as you're going to use live as you reasonably can.
So........... here's what I'd do. Have the guitarists bring their rigs to practice. Have them set up their amps either tilted back or on stands so that they're firing more at ear level, less at ankle level. Go through your set, keep the volumes reasonable, and adjust tone until you're hearing good things. You'll likely end up with tones that don't sound so great on their own, probably a lot more mids than you're used to. You've got two guitarists, so you'll probably want to work their tones so that they're sufficiently different to be distinct in the mix - one with a bit more mids and less high treble, one with a bit less mids and more high treble. This is a formula that occurs naturally in the classic guitarist a - Les Paul/humbuckers, guitarist b - Strat/single coil situation. It doesn't take much of a tone difference to accomplish this - the two guitar tones don't have to sound drastically different, just a bit.
Make notes of all the knob settings you come up with.
At the gig, you're probably going to make some amp adjustments for the venue, but try to stay as close to the practice settings as possible. Also, it's best to set up the guitar amps such that they're not firing straight out at the audience. From the side is great if you've got one guitarist on each side of the stage, but with two guitarists on the same side that doesn't usually work well 'cause one guy's a lot farther from his amp. in that situation, I'd say along the back facing forward, but in both cases tilted back for sure.
Let the PA carry the guitar volume for the venue. I guarantee you even the weakest PA can handle it.
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Even then though they're not contributing to any volume. If they're off stage or in isolation cabs they might as well be in Bhutan. As long as they're not contributing to stage sound the band is effectively ampless.
You may not be able to hear much difference between 12 O' Clock on the volume knob and all the way up depending on the taper of the pot.
IMHO This is clearly your issue and should be striving to play with less, more 'appropriate' stage volume. Your stage volume should be sufficient for 'the stage' and 'complimentary' to the vocals and other instruments. Less is more as you will have more headroom, dynamics will be improved. Your sound guy can handle the 'audience.' The rule of thumb on many situations is that it's better to cut than to boost. If the other players are playing appropriate for the stage then it is up to you to fit in with them.
Good luck!
While I have seen talented sound guys deal effectively with too much stage volume, it makes his/her job a lot harder. For smaller gigs I find it's counter-productive to have too much power and too many speakers. Mic'ing instruments is silly in these cases because once you blow away the drummer's volume, the bottom falls out and the sound becomes a mess. My last band was flexible when it came to stage/PA mixes. We had a small powered mixer just for vocals and added things when needed. My amp (Carvin BX1200 and two DB cabs) had plenty of juice for all situations. Since the head was so flexible, I could dial up any sound I wanted in bi-amp mode but I always made sure not to blow away my drummer. My guitar player/singer ran his pedal board (Vox with tube pre-amp) into a 60W powered Tech21 speaker cab. If the room was bigger, he would add a second cab and angle them accordingly. My drummer was a big dude who didn't need PA help at small gigs. If the room was bigger but there was no house PA, we had a 6 channel little mixer with one or two powered 15" PA cabs just for him. Even with the help our amps and vocal pa could hang with him in volume no problem. So could our PA since we only ran vocals which don't require lots of power. I got the idea of adding a separate little drum PA from a local blues band who just blows me away. They sounded full and got everybody dancing, yet everything else remained clear and tight. The vocals were clean because there were no other instruments sucking juice out of the vocal PA. Bottom line is you don't have to spend a lot of money on a PA to get great results.
This comment about not using amps has made me sadder than ever it should have.