Stage volume vs PA

[Stumbo]

what you say is basically true..but the big difference is that the positioning of the speaker boxes at rehersal is usually never the same as on a live stage..at live performances the boxes all face outward..this cant always be reproduced at a rehersal space..so.. room size..equipment placement..and accoustics are always going to be different..

..guitars are more often too much on stage rather than not enough..

When you setup on stage, you're to

While I have seen talented sound guys deal effectively with too much stage volume, it makes his/her job a lot harder. For smaller gigs I find it's counter-productive to have too much power and too many speakers. Mic'ing instruments is silly in these cases because once you blow away the drummer's volume, the bottom falls out and the sound becomes a mess. My last band was flexible when it came to stage/PA mixes. We had a small powered mixer just for vocals and added things when needed. My amp (Carvin BX1200 and two DB cabs) had plenty of juice for all situations. Since the head was so flexible, I could dial up any sound I wanted in bi-amp mode but I always made sure not to blow away my drummer. My guitar player/singer ran his pedal board (Vox with tube pre-amp) into a 60W powered Tech21 speaker cab. If the room was bigger, he would add a second cab and angle them accordingly. My drummer was a big dude who didn't need PA help at small gigs. If the room was bigger but there was no house PA, we had a 6 channel little mixer with one or two powered 15" PA cabs just for him. Even with the help our amps and vocal pa could hang with him in volume no problem. So could our PA since we only ran vocals which don't require lots of power. I got the idea of adding a separate little drum PA from a local blues band who just blows me away. They sounded full and got everybody dancing, yet everything else remained clear and tight. The vocals were clean because there were no other instruments sucking juice out of the vocal PA. Bottom line is you don't have to spend a lot of money on a PA to get great results.

Drummer PA. Cool idea.

What do you mean the guitar player angled his multiple cabs?

 

[Bodeanly]

This comment about not using amps has made me sadder than ever it should have.

I don’t know. On one hand, it’s less gear to load in/ out and stage volume is always under control. But the kid in me wants to see stacks of cabs for days because that’s freakin rock and roll, man.

 

[s0c9]

This comment about not using amps has made me sadder than ever it should have.

Why? If you are getting paid to play, what difference does it make HOW you get to FOH, as long as the punters like you and mgmt wants you back !!

My pedalboard fits in a case, and is a LOT LESS to lug into and out of a gig!
Being IEM, I'll go ampless wherever I can.

 

[pholli00]

Because I'm a romantic and sentimental. And amps mean rock.

 

[s0c9]

Because I'm a romantic and sentimental. And amps mean rock.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

View attachment 3125245 So, I’m in a band where we have the constant argument of getting better cabs to push stage volume(me pushing this) vs them using Marshall combo amps to push stage volume to push the bands on stage volume(them). Now this is what I’m running

Tech21 Landmark 300w bass head
Mesa Boogie 2X10, 1x15 Geddy Lee MIJ with Sadowsky onboard preamp.
Pedalboard-DG supersymnetry compressor, Tech21Qstrip and Sans Amp paradriver.

1st guitar player Marshall 2x10 combo

2nd Peavy 2x10 combo both push 200watts.

I think that they should get Amps which at least have 15” speakers with more power to match my own. (I’m not overbearingly loud). I’ve played in bands where full cabs were used and combos where bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now.

But live at each show afterwards everyone always compliments me on my sound but always say it lacks guitar punch and depth. Which has been my same point.

Each time I bring it up they just say why bother when the PA will just push their sound...which well apparently that doesn’t happen.

The places we play can hold anywhere from 100-350 people and usually have good draws. Any advice you guys can share to help to get them to understand that stage volume is important as well as amps being used. Here is a picture of the volume setting on my head.

You want to be louder on stage and the guitars aren't loud enough? The former is the wrong way to go about it, and I am not sure I believe the latter is possible.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I don’t fight FOH sound. Usually once it’s set I’ll have one of the guitar players play something so I hear how my bass sits in the monitors. As I stated I’m very aware of my stage volume and how it impacts things.

You are fighting FOH sound to some extent if you have any amps on stage.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

You literally don't. People play DI only all the time. Both guitar and bass. It sounds fine if you do it correctly.

You aren't fully aware of how sound works if you think speaker size indicates how something will sound. If you look at the frequency response graphs there are plenty of cabs with 10's that reproduce a lot more lows than cabs with 15's.

That being said, what 15" guitar cabs would you suggest they use? I haven't seen any since pedal steel players were using them in the 80's.

I've done guitar DI before. Through a reasonable amp and speaker emulator it's fine.

 

[pholli00]

Also it means I'm getting old.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I have a 40W Marshall 1x12 combo, and I can't even turn it up past 3 ( not 3 o'clock...that would be deadly!!) on any normal size stage without it being way too loud.

+1 to their tone not cutting through if there's really an issue. Any amp should be fine. They may have the tone controls set for their "bedroom tone", which doesn't work in a live situation at all.

I'd suggest doing some frequency analysis on a computer and listen to some isolated guitar tracks from classic tracks. Then after it's apparent that lots of classic fat guitar sounds are actually surprisingly thin, then it might be possible to sculpt the sound in a logical way then try it out in rehearsal and live. E.g. reserve sub 200Hz almost entirely for bass, cut the bass below 80Hz to avoid mud, give the bass a bit of space higher up for definition, etc (the latter depends on the sort of bass sound you want to come through).

 

[-Asdfgh-]

The bands I play in, the guitarists don’t even use amps anymore. They all have a Helix and whatnot and I’m the idiot dragging my amps and cabs to every gig. I have zero problem hearing them over my rig.

I first went ampless with guitar (using a solid state analogue emlulator) in 1994.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I don’t know. On one hand, it’s less gear to load in/ out and stage volume is always under control. But the kid in me wants to see stacks of cabs for days because that’s freakin rock and roll, man.

Fender, et al, should sell lightweight empty cabs for stage dressing.

If I thought I could get away without a bass amp all the time, I would just use that. I will work on achieving that on stage (either my monitor speakers, or the decent IEMs I have - but I don't have a wireless system so would need to pair them with wired monitoring at present).

 

[s0c9]

Fender, et al, should sell lightweight empty cabs for stage dressing.

I ran sound for 11 "tribute" bands back in late June.. Two of them (Motley Crue and Poison tributes) were the same folks, drove down to Dallas from KC.
They brought TWO sets of white FAKE marshall cab stacks - see them behind bassist.
They only used one as the stage wasn't wide enough.

 

[Bodeanly]

Fender, et al, should sell lightweight empty cabs for stage dressing.

There’s an AC/DC tribute that “unfolds” their “stacks of amps” before every show. I’ll try to find a pic. It’s just a bunch of black fabric and Marshall logos.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I ran sound for 11 "tribute" bands back in late June.. Two of them (Motley Crue and Poison tributes) were the same folks, drove down to Dallas from KC.
They brought TWO sets of white FAKE marshall cab stacks - see them behind bassist.
They only used one as the stage wasn't wide enough.

View attachment 3126225

Marshall is missing a trick on branding. A lightweight fake Marshall would be pretty good. And you could put your bag/flight case with your effects units and cables inside it for transport.

 

[s0c9]

Marshall is missing a trick on branding. A lightweight fake Marshall would be pretty good. And you could put your bag/flight case with your effects units and cables inside it for transport.

They told me those were custom made

 

[GrapeBass]

They told me those were custom made

The last Last RUSH tour used Traynor mock amplifiers and cabinets. The detail was pretty close to original, made by the original manufacturers too!

 

[sowilson]

OP, I come from the time when the PA was a Shure vocal master (or 2 or 3), and stage amps carried the sound. Drums were big and loud because they had to be. Now, there are a few tricks that you can consider using.
1) have the guitarists combo's point at their head. When amps point at your knee's sound levels and beeming tend to get out of control
2) If you use sealed cabs go vertical. Although a Marshall half stack looks cool, it can be better to run a full stack. When you run a full stack the speakers will point at the guitarists head and he'll be able to dial in the tone better and will turn the volumn down. Couple a full stack with a power soak and things can be glorius (really, no joke, I did this for years in a punk band). If you only have a half stack, put it on milk crates, it gets it closer to your ears.
3) Try open back or semi open back cabinets. The sound is better dispersed, less beaming, and it tends to be heard better on stage, although you may need to isolate some things to reduce mic bleed.
4) Fender tilt back legs are great, use them or amp stands. Getting the amp to fire at the guitarists head really helps.

OP, I use to play with a guitarist that was hard to mix. He ran a Messa Triaxis through a 4x12 cab with all the problems inherint to that set up. Cutting power output to 25watts didn't help. What helped was getting rid of the 4x12 and using 2 1x12's with partially open backs. Instantly cured our FOH mix issues and I was able to turn down (PA wasn't carrying the bass because it didn't have enough power).

 

[-Asdfgh-]

The last Last RUSH tour used Traynor mock amplifiers and cabinets. The detail was pretty close to original, made by the original manufacturers too!

Canadians supporting Canadians, eh?

 

[-Asdfgh-]

OP, I come from the time when the PA was a Shure vocal master (or 2 or 3), and stage amps carried the sound. Drums were big and loud because they had to be. Now, there are a few tricks that you can consider using.
1) have the guitarists combo's point at their head. When amps point at your knee's sound levels and beeming tend to get out of control
2) If you use sealed cabs go vertical. Although a Marshall half stack looks cool, it can be better to run a full stack. When you run a full stack the speakers will point at the guitarists head and he'll be able to dial in the tone better and will turn the volumn down. Couple a full stack with a power soak and things can be glorius (really, no joke, I did this for years in a punk band). If you only have a half stack, put it on milk crates, it gets it closer to your ears.
3) Try open back or semi open back cabinets. The sound is better dispersed, less beaming, and it tends to be heard better on stage, although you may need to isolate some things to reduce mic bleed.
4) Fender tilt back legs are great, use them or amp stands. Getting the amp to fire at the guitarists head really helps.

OP, I use to play with a guitarist that was hard to mix. He ran a Messa Triaxis through a 4x12 cab with all the problems inherint to that set up. Cutting power output to 25watts didn't help. What helped was getting rid of the 4x12 and using 2 1x12's with partially open backs. Instantly cured our FOH mix issues and I was able to turn down (PA wasn't carrying the bass because it didn't have enough power).

On 2. Use a stack, only run the top half.