Bass Synth Instruments

[Tosh]

OK. Good that the GR-55 is still available new. Are any of your basses equipped with the 13-pin GK setup?

Both basses have divided pickups/GK13-pin connector plus 1/4" standard connector

Leaving pitch-to-MIDI aside, I'm assuming that tracking low bass notes using the GK pickup has less latency than without, right?

What makes the latency low is the nature of the pickups. The optical system is the lowest, the piezo system is next lowest. Both systems have no perceptible latency when using the SY-1000. This is because the SY does not depend on PTM. The main reason for using the divided pickup (GK connector) is for individual string processing and true polyphony. You can still get low latency from the 1/4" jack, but it is MONOphonic

How do you find the Willcox bass in terms of battery power life and recharging time? A hassle, or no big deal?

No big deal, really. I'm not using wireless most of the time, so staying plugged into the power brick is not an issue.

Something I like about the Godin is that it gets power from the GK processor, so no more 9v batteries there!

 

[Rib 13]

I was underwhelmed by this, it didn’t track anywhere near as well as the FI and C4 for me. It was before I spent time honing my bass technique to work with pitch-to-MIDI systems though so perhaps I’d fare better with it now. You certainly seem to have it down pat.

Nah....I explained in a different post that I had to play very staccato and pushed with no slides......I still think the best option is using a keyboard- my current bass synth is my microKorg: great analog stuff but lacks any DXish/FM/80s patches

 

[jimfist]

@Quatschmacher
Thanks for all of the tips and leads. A lot of good info you've provided.

Just wanted to dig in a little harder on the idea of getting a Willcox Saber HexFx + Roland GR-55.
The main allure being the triggering of PCM waveforms via the integrated GK pickup system, and forget the idea of pitch-to-MIDI. Mainly: is low note latency reasonable?
Yes, it's a pricey endeavor, but in terms of form factor it would be ideal: GK equipped bass plugged into footpedal...done. It may not be "the best" at anything, but that's OK provided it functions reasonably well as a system.

Anyone out there using the Willcox HexFX+GR55 who can weigh in on the good-bad-ugly of that idea?

 

[jimfist]

Both basses have divided pickups/GK13-pin connector plus 1/4" standard connector


What makes the latency low is the nature of the pickups. The optical system is the lowest, the piezo system is next lowest. Both systems have no perceptible latency when using the SY-1000. This is because the SY does not depend on PTM. The main reason for using the divided pickup (GK connector) is for individual string processing and true polyphony. You can still get low latency from the 1/4" jack, but it is MONOphonic


No big deal, really. I'm not using wireless most of the time, so staying plugged into the power brick is not an issue.

Something I like about the Godin is that it gets power from the GK processor, so no more 9v batteries there!

Great. So if using GK pickup integrated into the Willcox HexFx, that's obviously the best chance at lowest latency with the GR-55. The burning question: how low is the GR55 latency, then? Anyone know, or is it functionally low enough that it doesn't matter?

 

[jasonbraatz]

Octave pedal, fuzz pedal, envelope filter

this is the way

 

[Quatschmacher]

Nah....I explained in a different post that I had to play very staccato and pushed with no slides......I still think the best option is using a keyboard- my current bass synth is my microKorg: great analog stuff but lacks any DXish/FM/80s patches

Time to add a Korg Volca FM or two then.

 

[cymbop]

Whatever Quatsch says, listen. He knows his stuff.

Here's the Future Impact in live action last weekend. P-bass with flats on it. Tracks well, and ghost notes work just fine.

 

[jimfist]

Whatever Quatsch says, listen. He knows his stuff.

Here's the Future Impact in live action last weekend. P-bass with flats on it. Tracks well, and ghost notes work just fine.

I have no doubt that the Future Impact is a good way to go, and the simplest to implement for synth sounds.
So what is the @Quatschmacher conventional wisdom for triggering PCM/sample-based sounds?
This is just as important to the equation for me as synth sounds.

Leaning heavily toward a Willcox HexFx bass + GR-55.
I posed the question a few times, but it seems nobody as of yet has weighed in with real world experience on this specific system. I've seen videos and it looks slick, but I'd like more info.

Other than using some type of conversion interface into a MIDI keyboard module or via USB sample playback software, it seems like the whole idea has fallen away, OTHER THAN the EHX string/organ/electric piano/mellotron pedals.

 

[Quatschmacher]

I have no doubt that the Future Impact is a good way to go, and the simplest to implement for synth sounds.
So what is the @Quatschmacher conventional wisdom for triggering PCM/sample-based sounds?
This is just as important to the equation for me as synth sounds.

Leaning heavily toward a Willcox HexFx bass + GR-55.
I posed the question a few times, but it seems nobody as of yet has weighed in with real world experience on this specific system. I've seen videos and it looks slick, but I'd like more info.

Other than using some type of conversion interface into a MIDI keyboard module or via USB sample playback software, it seems like the whole idea has fallen away, OTHER THAN the EHX string/organ/electric piano/mellotron pedals.

I haven’t used any PCM based stuff on bass, I’m afraid so I’m not much help in that particular area.

 

[Roland GR 88]

The easiest way in is through dedicated synth pedals. There’s Boss and SA threads galore here.
The EHX keys line can work for some but IME are arguably the most returned pedal series of all time. YRMV
The cheapest way is with an older GR unit with its cable and a taped on GK3 p/u. This way you’ll get an idea of how a hex p/u behaves and whether or not it’s worth investing the time and money to use one regularly. Older complete GR systems, often with spare parts go for 150-300 depending on the model, condition & age but regardless, the behaviour of the hex p/u will be pretty much the same as a new one.
Hex and MIDI guitar gear and companies can have spectacular but short lifespans and any bass that’s factory equipped with a 13pin output should be a bass you’d play just as happily without it.
If I was starting out I’d look at a C4 or an SY200 as a starting point and go from there.

 

[Tosh]

...

Leaning heavily toward a Willcox HexFx bass + GR-55.
I posed the question a few times, but it seems nobody as of yet has weighed in with real world experience on this specific system. I've seen videos and it looks slick, but I'd like more info.

Other than using some type of conversion interface into a MIDI keyboard module or via USB sample playback software, it seems like the whole idea has fallen away, OTHER THAN the EHX string/organ/electric piano/mellotron pedals.

I don't own a GR-55, but I do have the GI-20, which is regarded (by some) as an equal to the GR-55 in terms of PTM latency. I can say that there are some instances where the latency is within acceptable parameters ex: when I'm playing any note above Bb (1 fret of the A string) and the PCM voice I'm triggering has a slower attack than my bass string, so I get a slap-back kind of effect with 2 very different voices which works up to a certain tempo and..you get the idea.

I found that playing a sampled trombone from a bass can be very expressive and more convincing than using a keyboard, and that you will NEVER get a sampled piano to play correctly from a bass. Just use a dang piano.

I agree that the best thing you can get today (meaning you don't have to wait til 202?) is the Wilcox and the GR-55. However, it's very important to remember that the only way the GR-55 plays PCM samples is via PTM. There will be latency, it cannot be defeated. The GR-55 also offers modeling synthesis, which does not use PTM, and has almost imperceptible latency. So it has a lot going for it beyond sample playback/PTM.

There is a Wilcox club on this forum, which you may have already browsed. If not, check it out. Personally I think they're great with or without the GK function. As for the GR-55, well, there've been a fair number of guitar players who bought one, then found out it wasn't really what they wanted. Easy to find used, but still supported by Roland. New firmware, drivers, all of that.

So - that said - go for it

PS the GR-55 was/is targeted toward guitar players. Many used ones are being sold with the GK3 pickup, which is a waste of your money if you don't have a guitar to put it on. I'd look for one without the pickup. I've seen them advertised for <$600. The 55 does have bass mode, the 33 doesn't. You don't want a GR-33.

 

[jimfist]

@Tosh , your insights are much appreciated. I'm going over to the Willcox Club to make some inquiries.

As for the HexFx + GR-55 with respect to playing back its internal PCM sounds, I understand that latency is a given.
[ note: are we talking about the INTERNAL PCM sounds on the GR-55, or using it to trigger externally via MIDI?]
My hope is that it is low latency enough to be good enough for live use on the low strings, and I don't anticipate any speed-playing down low, or in general for that matter. I'm a fairly traditional rock bassist who wants to find a relatively painless way to add an array of other sounds to the mix. I realize that the GR-55 can be a beast for programming, but I've got the luxury of time, assuming I do stick with it. Thanks again for the input.

 

[Tosh]

...
[ note: are we talking about the INTERNAL PCM sounds on the GR-55, or using it to trigger externally via MIDI?]
...

either way. I've read some reports that the internal PCM is slightly faster than externally connected PCM modules. It seems that the speed of the MIDI serial connection is less than the internal buss. We're talking about 2 or 3 milliseconds here.

I've been looking for a post I read a while back where actual latencies between PTM devices were measured. The Axon system (derived from the original Yamaha unit - G50?) scored the best, with the GI-20 close behind, and GR-55 coming up in 3rd I think. None of these systems other than the GR-55 are still in production, and none of them were considered to be "tight" enough to use on the low end of a bass in a live setting.

If you ever played Sousaphone in a large marching band, and had to watch the drum major to keep the beat because you weren't close enough to the drums, then you have already learned a technique to compensate for latency.

This link to vguitar forums might be interesting to you:
GR-55 as a Guitar To MIDI Controller

 

[AlexanderB]

either way. I've read some reports that the internal PCM is slightly faster than externally connected PCM modules. It seems that the speed of the MIDI serial connection is less than the internal buss. We're talking about 2 or 3 milliseconds here.

I've been looking for a post I read a while back where actual latencies between PTM devices were measured. The Axon system (derived from the original Yamaha unit - G50?) scored the best, with the GI-20 close behind, and GR-55 coming up in 3rd I think. None of these systems other than the GR-55 are still in production, and none of them were considered to be "tight" enough to use on the low end of a bass in a live setting.

If you ever played Sousaphone in a large marching band, and had to watch the drum major to keep the beat because you weren't close enough to the drums, then you have already learned a technique to compensate for latency.

This link to vguitar forums might be interesting to you:
GR-55 as a Guitar To MIDI Controller

I read that a previous bass player for Paula Abdul after a few months of touring, using lots of triggered sounds, discovered he was way early in his timing when going back to normal bass playing.

 

[jimfist]

either way. I've read some reports that the internal PCM is slightly faster than externally connected PCM modules. It seems that the speed of the MIDI serial connection is less than the internal buss. We're talking about 2 or 3 milliseconds here.

I've been looking for a post I read a while back where actual latencies between PTM devices were measured. The Axon system (derived from the original Yamaha unit - G50?) scored the best, with the GI-20 close behind, and GR-55 coming up in 3rd I think. None of these systems other than the GR-55 are still in production, and none of them were considered to be "tight" enough to use on the low end of a bass in a live setting.

If you ever played Sousaphone in a large marching band, and had to watch the drum major to keep the beat because you weren't close enough to the drums, then you have already learned a technique to compensate for latency.

This link to vguitar forums might be interesting to you:
GR-55 as a Guitar To MIDI Controller

Thanks for the info. Interesting analogy with tuba in a marching band, and I've played lower brass most of my life, so yes, I get the whole time compensation thing. I think I have to evaluate how far I'm willing to go to implement something like the GR-55 with respect to time and $$$. I know it's a bit archaic in its programming, but I look at it as a learning exercise, and I'm no stranger to menu-diving. This is contrary to my current stance of simplicity and ease of use, but maybe it's just time to shift gears and make my brain itch. I'm an incurable gear junkie.

 

[jimfist]

I read that a previous bass player for Paula Abdul after a few months of touring, using lots of triggered sounds, discovered he was way early in his timing when going back to normal bass playing.

I'd experiment with blending the attack of the bass with the synth/PCM sounds if the delay is that obvious....or....I'd avoid going there at all. I'm not making my bread and butter playing synth bass. It's just for yucks and to add some ear candy here and there, perhaps a handful of songs per performance.

 

[Tosh]

That's a healthy approach! I started my bass/synth journey when we were sequestered at the start of the pandemic. It's a lot of fun and has helped me develop new techniques in playing. What you choose play has a big impact on how you use these tools, of course, but IMHO you will become a better player whether or not you actually use bass synthesis in your performance.

I've been working on "From The Beginning" with my SY-1000. Not there yet ;-} but my musician friends are always blown away when I play Keith Emerson's Moog solo using my bass (at the expense of the accompanying bass line)

 

[AlexanderB]

I'd experiment with blending the attack of the bass with the synth/PCM sounds if the delay is that obvious....or....I'd avoid going there at all. I'm not making my bread and butter playing synth bass. It's just for yucks and to add some ear candy here and there, perhaps a handful of songs per performance.

I have written before that my BOSS SY-1 adds a realistic layer of organ to my bass lines for slower songs. People come up to the stage afterwards and ask who played "Hammond", as we have no keyboard player. It takes a different, very precise bass playing (accurate note entry, no slides, no bends, no sloppiness) to sell it, but then it just works so well! And no latency or mis-triggering.

 

[cosmicevan]

Does the UniSyn also have a standard (i.e., Old Skool) 5-pin MIDI output also?
Or, are TRS>DIN adapters common for connecting modern MIDI equipment to older synth modules?

TRS > 5 pin.

Once I get my setup in a position that I can send some sound clips and/or video...I will...but the Unisyn IS the answer. If you don't agree, the. You haven't tried it. Period.

The design is a bit fragile though and things can be improved upon...like who needs the built in synth? But it plays like a dream. It blows away everything else I have tried from the future impact to the SY1.

 

[Bob_Ross]

TRS > 5 pin.

Thanks. I think... Just so I'm clear -- remember, my intimate awareness of all things MIDI peaked right around 1992 -- you're saying there is a (hopefully simple) cable adapter that converts the TRS output of the UniSyn to a standard old skool 5-pin MIDI DIN plug...right?