Bass Synth Instruments

[Tosh]

....It would appear that the 13-pin system is used by Willcox only at the moment, though I think the Godin A4 Bass Ultra (discontinued...son of a B&^#% !!) also has it. So the IR and RO fret sensing technology doesn't give access to the Roland goodies for individual string processing or tuning...at least not via a 13-pin connector.

What has me wanting the GR55 is, in great part, the ability to use bass and amp modeling for alt tunings at the press of a footswitch. Any idea how this tech plays out with the Willcox Lightwave in terms of latency specs?
I could still see myself going that route just so I can use one bass all night and not have to deal with 2 different tuned basses plus drop-D tuning for each. If the GR-55 can pull this off, then I'm still in business....possibly.

Or should I be looking at the SY-1000 for bass modeling & alt tuning?

IIRC the Bass mode of the SY-1000 doesn't do the alt-tunings that Guitar mode offers. It will do octave up/down and 12 string emulation.

When it comes to Bass modeling I haven't head anything better. Also, you can get great Analog synth sounds such as Moog and Buchla, if you understand the basics of synth programming (plenty of tutorials to help with that).

I would like to make a recording that compares the Willcox Lightwave to the Godin Ultra SA in terms of latency. I'm not sure the difference will be significant, but I could be wrong. Right now my studio is torn down for re-modelling but I could probably get something cobbed together.

Still it remains that the physics of sound and state of modern electronics are dictating that Latency Must Exist when converting pitch to MIDI data. The same is true of Bluetooth, WiFi, Giganet, HDradio, etc. Only a purely analog system can work without latency.

Now, when we have quantum computing at our fingertips, things could be very different. Your bass might sound the note BEFORE you play it!

But we live in the here and now.....at least I do ;-}

 

[jimfist]

Oh, just to add a quick thought to this thread: A lot of bass lines that were written and performed on synths just play and groove so much better when you actually play them on a keyboard. My ultimate case in point is Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan. I'm a fairly accomplished player and I make my living performing, but that damn bass line is really, really hard to play on an electric bass. But on a keyboard? No problemo. You just have to commit to working on developing a time feel on keyboard as opposed to a bass.

I agree 100%.....but......
I'm not using a keyboard.

 

[jimfist]

I think I've pretty much made up my mind - for now - that I'm holding off the purchase of a MIDI/GK equipped bass guitar. There are too many quirky issues to sort out, and this is an expensive endeavor for me to be completely unsure if it will work for me.

Most likely, I'll dig in with dedicated pedals for traditional synth sounds. The Boss SY series, Future Impact, Source Audio C4 all seem to get excellent reviews in that department. For triggering more esoteric PCM sounds, I'll probably find a local music shop that carries the Electro-Harmonix "9" series pedals and see if they can be made to work or not.

I'm disappointed that there haven't been more strides made, and that there seems to be little interest (especially in the USA) for development of bass guitars that can trigger/track with latency under 10msec or so. NOT pitch-based recognition, but the other "fret sensing" technology that seems to be much faster, accurate and flexible. I'm thinking of a system much like the GR-55, but based on fret-sensing rather than pitch so that PCM sound triggering is much faster, and with the benefit of alt tunings and individual string programming. Oh well...not holding my breath.

I appreciate all of the excellent info and advice. Thank you!

 

[Quatschmacher]

I'm disappointed that there haven't been more strides made, and that there seems to be little interest (especially in the USA) for development of bass guitars that can trigger/track with latency under 10msec or so. NOT pitch-based recognition, but the other "fret sensing" technology that seems to be much faster, accurate and flexible.

As someone said, Frettrax is a US company doing exactly that but it seems it has sold the business to a “major music company”; so let’s see if it’s someone like Fender or Yamaha and what comes of that.

 

[sunbeast]

I think I've pretty much made up my mind - for now - that I'm holding off the purchase of a MIDI/GK equipped bass guitar. There are too many quirky issues to sort out, and this is an expensive endeavor for me to be completely unsure if it will work for me.

Most likely, I'll dig in with dedicated pedals for traditional synth sounds. The Boss SY series, Future Impact, Source Audio C4 all seem to get excellent reviews in that department. For triggering more esoteric PCM sounds, I'll probably find a local music shop that carries the Electro-Harmonix "9" series pedals and see if they can be made to work or not.

I'm disappointed that there haven't been more strides made, and that there seems to be little interest (especially in the USA) for development of bass guitars that can trigger/track with latency under 10msec or so. NOT pitch-based recognition, but the other "fret sensing" technology that seems to be much faster, accurate and flexible. I'm thinking of a system much like the GR-55, but based on fret-sensing rather than pitch so that PCM sound triggering is much faster, and with the benefit of alt tunings and individual string programming. Oh well...not holding my breath.

I appreciate all of the excellent info and advice. Thank you!

First thing- 10ms is less than the latency inherent in most if not all keyboard MIDI controllers- if you read the info in the middle of the MIDI Speed article @Tosh posted earlier, the tester goes into this and how when testing a keyboard triggering a popular Kurzweil synth they clocked a 20ms latency. MIDI tech in itself inherently has latency, plus any added latency inherent to any device you are triggering. When you consider that then the latency of things like the GR55 doesn't really seem that out of hand.

As far as the fret-sensing basses I think its just too niche a market, which is why the more mass-produced options from the past didn't last. You can get acceptable latency even from the GR55 method or the EHX 9-series using a guitar octave, so that's where most of the market lies for this kind of playing. Not to mention that in many cases the PCM and synth sounds here are probably pretty dated to many people (I think they can be nice, but also many can sound like the keyboard section of a Guitar Center in the early-2000s particularly if you aren't playing to the sounds well which is pretty hard with some sounds that are so removed from a guitar instrument).

The added price of the fret-sensing tech puts it out of reach of typical working musicians (who are likely to not want to depend on that kind of quirky/specific tech on stage/tour and will much more likely just pick up a keyboard synth or MIDI controller for bass synth tones as seen in countless bands these days sitting next to the bassist) or hobbyists (for many of whom the GR55 is already probably pushing the threshold of affordable), especially since the tracking latency is really the biggest issue for bassists and not guitarists (where there is a larger market). In fact I personally don't know of a single bassist famous for using such an instrument live, and even among guitarists it seemed to have had its heyday in the 80s (with players like Alan Holdsworth and John McLaughlin).

I can't recall if I mentioned it before, but some folks have had good luck using guitar tuning on a bass (then downtuning the sounds an octave) with some extra-long strings (you'd have to experiment to get a reasonable length and string tension) to get a sort of compromise of the feel of a bass but with better tracking- though clearly this wouldn't fit your use-case since you aren't looking to go "all-in" on "in the box" bass sounds.

 

[CryingBass]

So you get excellent midi with simple devices like the Keith McMillen stuff. I have his keypads and footpads.

But at the other end of the spectrum for Bass, you get stuff like the Wal midi and Electric Studio ( sp? ).
They have to cut every fret into sections, they have to run a ton of wires under the fretboard, etc.
No way the average Joe is going to pay for all that, just to get a good low ms signal from a very-close-to-real bass just to send the signal into a synth that will make it sound like a Toaster.

So that's it: Probably use some of the many avaiable triggering devices and play midi notes that way, or take you chances on other options for more $$$. Godin Ultra is maybe in-between. Good luck.

 

[jimfist]

First thing- 10ms is less than the latency inherent in most if not all keyboard MIDI controllers- if you read the info in the middle of the MIDI Speed article @Tosh posted earlier, the tester goes into this and how when testing a keyboard triggering a popular Kurzweil synth they clocked a 20ms latency. MIDI tech in itself inherently has latency, plus any added latency inherent to any device you are triggering. When you consider that then the latency of things like the GR55 doesn't really seem that out of hand.

I was simply "wishing out loud" for development a system/technology that doesn't yet exist. I did read what you've quoted and am fully aware of the existing challenges. Thank you.

Regardless, I'm giving the idea of a Willcox, Industrial Radio, or Rob O'Reilly bass a long rest.

 

[thumbslapper]

I've been researching/playing synth/MIDI bass for years, let me put in my 2c:

- I had a Peavy Cyberbass i bought used in the early 00's - it worked for a while but then the A string started having serious issues and I eventually sold it for parts - when it worked it was pretty good (but the computer based synths i was playing back in the 00's had huge latency as well, so lets just say the tracks had a laid back feel to them) but I wouldn't recommend it now unless you were really into electronics repair.
- I've used Jam Origin MIDIBass which is a computer (PC or MAC) based VST/AU that translates audio signal to MIDI.. their MIDIGuitar is pretty good but despite MIDIBass tracking ok it doesn't track bends so didn't really end up being that usable.
- have a older SonicSmith Convertor (converts audio to analog synth/eurosynth outputs). not great results going to a Arturia MiniBrute2, higher frequencies converted only ok, lower not at all.
- I have and like the Future Impact but without an external MIDI pedal its kind of hard to use, but it does get some great sounds.
- for synths now i use a IE Dubterrenea --> FEA Photon Fuzz II --> IE Polytope --> IE Xerogragh Delux or Dunlop Chancellor wah/filter... it doesn't have a great range of sounds but what it does have sounds great. Throwing a Source Audio Ultrawave instead of hte FEA gets a good different set of sounds as well (that pedal has the same MIDI issues as the S4 and Future Impact in that you need a MIDI switcher to really take advantage of it)

@cosmicevan - really excited to hear about your experience with the Unisyn - this is the first i've heard of it - I'm guessing you are using the MIDI out on it to drive the Minitaur? (I have the Minitaur as well - it sounds awesome - but its CV implementation is horrible). How low does it track, does it track down to low B decently? Despite having a Arturia MiniBrute2 - which can be the base of a good eurorack setup - i'm not quite ready to go down the black hole of eurorack just yet.

 

[bass.slinger]

Yeah, the limited repair and refret options for the Midi, Cyber, and IR basses kept me away from them also.

 

[4Mal]

Best stand alone for me is the FI. Unisyn seems interesting. I suffered multiple itterations though of Roland. The GK pickup, RMC in a Godin A4/SA. Worked great - from a Godin MultiAC Sa nulon string guitar. Worth less otherwise, for me anyway.

Future impact is still the best sounding (most moog-like) so far... for me. C4 is a distant memory, though I do still have a Spectrum which has the bast part of a C4 in it, again for my uses. YMMV.

Also thinking about biting the bullet with a small kbd controller and a module. I already carry most of a PA. One more smallish bag ? eh, not a problem. Gaining facility on keys ? Yeah, well in my old aeronautics job we would refer to test results as success! or smoking holes :-(

I envision much smoke in my future ;-)

 

[Quatschmacher]

Best stand alone for me is the FI. Unisyn seems interesting. I suffered multiple itterations though of Roland. The GK pickup, RMC in a Godin A4/SA. Worked great - from a Godin MultiAC Sa nulon string guitar. Worth less otherwise, for me anyway.

Future impact is still the best sounding (most moog-like) so far... for me. C4 is a distant memory, though I do still have a Spectrum which has the bast part of a C4 in it, again for my uses. YMMV.

Also thinking about biting the bullet with a small kbd controller and a module. I already carry most of a PA. One more smallish bag ? eh, not a problem. Gaining facility on keys ? Yeah, well in my old aeronautics job we would refer to test results as success! or smoking holes :-(

I envision much smoke in my future ;-)

Remember you can trigger the FI with a keyboard, so maybe just start with a controller and that if you want to go down the keys route. The bonus of triggering with keys is that the portamento then works.

 

[4Mal]

@Quatschmacher I had forgotten that. I might hook up an old Korg 49 key that is kicking around and give that a shot!

 

[Tosh]

Godin A4 SA 2007 Natural HC & GB | Reverb

RMC has an updated preamp (PolyDrive II) which incorporates a sub-sonic filter. This A4 probably has the PolyDrive I installed.

 

[claudel]

I've had decent luck, partially, running into iPad with an app called "RoxSyn" by Yonac.

Seems to track reasonably well, 3 oscillators, 2 filters, a few effects.

Sounds pretty good for what it is.

Easy enough to mix in with regular bass.

No go on the pitch to MIDI, though.

I'd love to find a way to trigger samples in the iPad too. Keyboarders have all the cool toys...

Nobody's figured out how to violate the laws of physics and track low notes with inaudible latency, yet, though.

Closest thing is Midi Guitar 2 but thinking about transposing up an octave to trigger an octave down patch just seems wrong.

 

[thumbslapper]

I've had decent luck, partially, running into iPad with an app called "RoxSyn" by Yonac.

Seems to track reasonably well, 3 oscillators, 2 filters, a few effects.

Sounds pretty good for what it is.

Easy enough to mix in with regular bass.

No go on the pitch to MIDI, though.

I'd love to find a way to trigger samples in the iPad too. Keyboarders have all the cool toys...

Nobody's figured out how to violate the laws of physics and track low notes with inaudible latency, yet, though.

Closest thing is Midi Guitar 2 but thinking about transposing up an octave to trigger an octave down patch just seems wrong.

RoxSyn is awesome on both guitar and bass, some great sounds on it. It doesn't track the pitch and have a oscillator, it just works off audio input, so you can put use chords with no problem. There are some great iOS apps for guitar and bass out there..

 

[claudel]

RoxSyn is awesome on both guitar and bass, some great sounds on it. It doesn't track the pitch and have a oscillator, it just works off audio input, so you can put use chords with no problem. There are some great iOS apps for guitar and bass out there..

I've pretty much narrowed the scope of my sonic experiments to the iPad.

There's some great sounding & very useful iOS apps being published these days.

 

[bass.slinger]

I've had decent luck, partially, running into iPad with an app called "RoxSyn" by Yonac.

Closest thing is Midi Guitar 2 but thinking about transposing up an octave to trigger an octave down patch just seems wrong.

Have not tried RoxSyn - looks interesting. I find that MIDI Guitar 2 works really well being feed an octave up tone from my Bass Whammy - works well with chords even.

 

[sunbeast]

Godin A4 SA 2007 Natural HC & GB | Reverb

RMC has an updated preamp (PolyDrive II) which incorporates a sub-sonic filter. This A4 probably has the PolyDrive I installed.

I thought I had read somewhere that the updated pre didn’t come along til the early years of the A4 Ultra (mine is one of the early ones with the clover tuners but before the thumbrest came around), but I could well be wrong about that (finding info about my A4 Ultra and what all is in it took some digging, though I didn’t try messaging Godin to be fair). In any case, my A4 Ultra tracks much better than I had anticipated when deciding whether to pick up one of the Roland pedals to try it out.

 

[Bob_Ross]

So for those of you playing bass through RoxSyn on an iPad: How are you getting audio in and out of the iPad?

 

[thumbslapper]

So for those of you playing bass through RoxSyn on an iPad: How are you getting audio in and out of the iPad?

I have a Focusrite interface I use - I've had the IK Multimedia one but didn't prove to be super reliable.

There are a few guitar pedal USB audio interfaces out there - Hotone Jogg, XSonic Xtone, (there is at least one more) that would look better on a pedalboard then a generic USB interface, but none of htem are exactly what i want (just stereo in/out and a real bypass)

speaking of synths, anyone know if the new Eventide H90 2 synth modes (HotSawz and Sythonizer) track bass down to a low E or low B ok?