Jeff Berlin says = Question Everything that Bass Players Teach You. Question me, too!

[Spin Doctor]

I changed my post to you as I lost my cool for a moment. I removed my sarcastic comments. Apologizes!

That stuff doesn't bother me.

 

[Michael F Clef]

I'm a newbie so excuse me, and I'm also a bit biased as Mr.Berlin is one of my top 3 Bass players of all time that I would like to "play like"...but...If a teacher whose playing I want to emulate is teaching me for example sight reading, does it matter if they dont use Simandl? Even though his texts have been used for a hundred years? If I admire someone's playing and assuming they are teaching me methods that got them to where they are and how to "play like them," isn't that good enough?

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'm a newbie so excuse me, and I'm also a bit biased as Mr.Berlin is one of my top 3 Bass players of all time that I would like to "play like"...but...If a teacher whose playing I want to emulate is teaching me for example sight reading, does it matter if they dont use Simandl? Even though his texts have been used for a hundred years? If I admire someone's playing and assuming they are teaching me methods that got them to where they are and how to "play like them," isn't that good enough?

If you have an interest in playing like someone, the best way to do this isn't to take lessons from them. It's to buy their CD's and imitate what you hear. This, by the way, is a form of ear training.

Next, Smandl is a limited reading book. It is actually an arco book written for upright bass players. While it contains OK material to practice, realize that the book is essentially a bowing technique book for the acoustic bass, not a harmonically centered reading opportunity.

 

[Pacman]

I assumed that the video was meant to explain that, by practicing an exercise in 12 keys, bass players might not be playing the music in the remaining 16 different key types that music includes ( there 30 keys where key signatures are in use.) I commented by saying that since much of the music that bass players play was written in static major, or minor. Thus, transposing the music into a possible 30 keys made no musical sense because the music that was being transposed had to remain in its original major or minor (or modal tonalities.) Hence, the statement about 30 keys wasn’t relevant to anyone practicing the bass. Playing an exercise in 12 keys worked perfectly since most transposition takes place by ear. If one chose to write out the music, then 15 key types would be applicable.

This strikes me as odd coming from you. You very often espouse the benefits of learning "musical facts." In building a jazz vocabulary, very little is better than transcribing. And if I transcribe a cool like I hear (say a hip passage over a II-V-I), why would I *NOT* learn to do that over a minor ii-V-i? That will only make me a better player. I mean, sure - I don't need to learn "Another One Bites the Dust" in all major and minor keys, but that's clearly not what Vic was talking about in that clip. Why would you disagree with this approach?

 

[JeffBerlin]

This strikes me as odd coming from you. You very often espouse the benefits of learning "musical facts." In building a jazz vocabulary, very little is better than transcribing. And if I transcribe a cool like I hear (say a hip passage over a II-V-I), why would I *NOT* learn to do that over a minor ii-V-i? That will only make me a better player. I mean, sure - I don't need to learn "Another One Bites the Dust" in all major and minor keys, but that's clearly not what Vic was talking about in that clip. Why would you disagree with this approach?

Thank you for asking me.

I disagree with it because it was designed to simplify a concept of learning that doesn't require simplification. There already exists a perfect way to be taught 12 to 15 keys. Why re think something is already exists and is perfect in its explanation of different keys?

Secondly. knowing that there are 30 key types doesn't make this lesson usable in art or available for practice. Musical lines usually represent one key at a time. You can't take a major key melody and play it in minor. Nor can you take a major 7 modal key melody and play it in min7(b5). In short, the method doesn't address the different keys individually because no melody or even a scale was used to be transcribed.

Next, simplifying am existing concept either implies or outright declares that bass players aren't either interested or capable of learning music as other musicians do. But, they are and should start to see themselves this way. Anyone with a musical background can teach 12 keys to someone in a couple of days. It isn't a hard concept to grasp if you are taught it correctly.

 

[Pacman]

Thank you for asking me.

I disagree with it because it was designed to simplify a concept of learning that doesn't require simplification. There already exists a perfect way to be taught 12 to 15 keys. Why re think something is already exists and is perfect in its explanation of different keys?

How is taking the idea of 12-15 keys and expanding it to 30 simplifying? By very definition, it makes it twice the complexity.

Secondly. knowing that there are 30 key types doesn't make this lesson usable in art or available for practice. Musical lines usually represent one key at a time. You can't take a major key melody and play it in minor. Nor can you take a major 7 modal key melody and play it in min7(b5). In short, the method doesn't address the different keys individually because no melody or even a scale was used to be transcribed.

Taking major melodic fragments (as you like to call them, musical "facts") and changing their tonality is one of the key improvisational concepts taught by guys like David Baker, Mike Steinel, etc. It's well recognized as a great way to develop a vocabulary on any instrument. You absolutely can play a major key melody and play it in minor. Who hasn't played "Happy Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" in minor?

Next, simplifying am existing concept either implies or outright declares that bass players aren't either interested or capable of learning music as other musicians do. But, they are and should start to see themselves this way. Anyone with a musical background can teach 12 keys to someone in a couple of days. It isn't a hard concept to grasp if you are taught it correctly.

Again, this concept isn't simplifying anything. Vic was pointing out that there's MORE work to be done, not less.

 

[JeffBerlin]

How is taking the idea of 12-15 keys and expanding it to 30 simplifying? By very definition, it makes it twice the complexity.



Taking major melodic fragments (as you like to call them, musical "facts") and changing their tonality is one of the key improvisational concepts taught by guys like David Baker, Mike Steinel, etc. It's well recognized as a great way to develop a vocabulary on any instrument. You absolutely can play a major key melody and play it in minor. Who hasn't played "Happy Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" in minor?



Again, this concept isn't simplifying anything. Vic was pointing out that there's MORE work to be done, not less.

If I remember correctly, the very first sentence spoken on the video is that theory is easy and was instantly followed by a more complicated explanation of the 12 key use of transposing (usually by ear) that bass players do. Neither Victor nor his audience can write out music in 30 keys as most haven't been taught how to read or write music. And, as I said in my post above, the transposition of music into 30 keys doesn't even work.

I think that he referred to "dumbing down" but then corrected his comment. But his intention was, I believe to make simple something that simply "is". Further, as I stated above, there's no application for this concept. It is more conversational than usable in art or practice.

 

[jallenbass]

Neither Victor nor his audience can write out music in 30 keys as most haven't been taught how to read or write music.

Really? I would not be able to make a statement like that without solid data. Facts if you will.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Neither Victor nor his audience can write out music in 30 keys as most haven't been taught how to read or write music.

The entertainment value you bring to Talkbass is simply priceless...

Victor is gigging worldwide. What are you doing? Debating random people on the internet about esoteric BS... It's kinda sad.

Everytime you make yet another sweeping unverified generalization, with your foot firmly in your mouth, it becomes more and more difficult (for me) to take anything you say as having any credibility whatsoever.

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid. The above, was something you just didn't need to say if you pretend to be one of Victor's peers or even a somewhat well adjusted adult, both of which I call into question. I know 10 year olds with better manners.

 

[Gorn]

Neither Victor nor his audience can write out music in 30 keys as most haven't been taught how to read or write music.

Jeff. Really? I mean.....you started a thread asking why people have a problem with the things you say. Here is a bright shining example of not only another baseless assertion, but an insulting one at that. No one's saying you should change your ways or your views. You're a grown man and you've made a life for yourself right? So you're doing fine. You don't owe anyone anything. But nonsense like the above statement is why so many people think you're rude and condescending. It's like a barrier that stands in front of anything useful you might have to say. Tact goes a long way. Humility too.

 

[Pacman]

Neither Victor nor his audience can write out music in 30 keys as most haven't been taught how to read or write music.

Incorrect. Completely so.

And, as I said in my post above, the transposition of music into 30 keys doesn't even work.

You said it, but you're wrong. You most certainly *can* transpose music across tonalities. You were a violinist starting out, correct? You never played any theme and variations pieces that restated a theme in minor (relative OR parallel)? It's a *very* common, and basic, technique.

I think that he referred to "dumbing down" but then corrected his comment. But his intention was, I believe to make simple something that simply "is". Further, as I stated above, there's no application for this concept. It is more conversational than usable in art or practice.

There are tons of applications for this concept, as I said before. Some of the greatest educators in the music field recommend this technique for building your improvisational vocabulary. That's the most obvious, and probably most useful application there, but there are others.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Incorrect. Completely so.



You said it, but you're wrong. You most certainly *can* transpose music across tonalities. You were a violinist starting out, correct? You never played any theme and variations pieces that restated a theme in minor (relative OR parallel)? It's a *very* common, and basic, technique.



There are tons of applications for this concept, as I said before. Some of the greatest educators in the music field recommend this technique for building your improvisational vocabulary. That's the most obvious, and probably most useful application there, but there are others.

I gave my best effort to explain my reasons for my views. If none work for you, then I prefer not to continue explaining myself anymore. Wishing you well, Jeff

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Musical lines usually represent one key at a time. You can't take a major key melody and play it in minor.

Sure you can. Mozart does it here, where mm. 5-6 are a minor version of mm. 1-2:

Beethoven, Brahms, and Mahler, to name just a few others, also used this device often. It's a pretty common device in the repertoire, so much so that it was common practice to write at least one variation in the contrasting parallel mode in almost every theme and variations movement written in the classical period. Check out any set of Mozart variations in major. Probably the most well known example is the sonata K. 331, where Variation III is in minor.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Sure you can. Mozart does it here, where mm. 5-6 are a minor version of mm. 1-2:

View attachment 2923523


Beethoven, Brahms, and Mahler, to name just a few others, also used this device often. It's a pretty common device in the repertoire, so much so that it was common practice to write at least one variation in the contrasting parallel mode in almost every theme and variations movement written in the classical period. Check out any set of Mozart variations in major. Probably the most well known example is the sonata K. 331, where Variation III is in minor.

Thank you for sharing this. But, I don't think that you read what I wrote. I referred to lines that bass players play or practice, at least in other posts. This example of Mozart doesn't represent a line of music, but a composition representing motion and resolution in harmony, exactly what I mentioned in my comments on FB. Further, you still can't take a major key melody (such as the National Anthem for example) and play it in minor.

Anyone with musical training knows that harmony varies in music. But since most bass who, for the most part don't read music, aren't correctly trained in harmony/theory and who often can barely function in one key let alone 12, will have unnecessary difficulty in practice or in art this concept that you offered with the Mozart Sonata.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thank you for sharing this. But, I don't think that you read what I wrote. I referred to lines that bass players play or practice, at least in other posts. This example of Mozart doesn't represent a line of music, but a composition representing motion and resolution in harmony, exactly what I mentioned in my comments on FB.

I no longer use FB so I have no context for the last part of this statement, but as for the rest I respectfully disagree with the above. I read exactly what you wrote. Take a look at the melody of the measures quoted - it is certainly a "line of music", and in mm. 5-6 the original line of major melody is restated in minor. It's basic mode mixture, and it was commonly used in the classical repertoire for several hundred years.

Here it is as it is presented it to a comparative jazz analysis class I teach every 2 years:

adds 3 flats to become Bbmi, then the line becomes:

As for the rest, the distinction between a "line of music" and a "composition representing motion and resolution in harmony" as used here seems like obfuscation, as lines of music represent motion and imply harmony and resolution, and compositions tend to be built around lines of music. Early on in the class mentioned, we present classical themes in lead sheet format and jazz themes in grand staff arrangement to show that music is basically music despite the notation it is dressed up in.

Further, you still can't take a major key melody (such as the National Anthem for example) and play it in minor.

Again, respectfully, I just walked over to my bass and played this melody in the minor mode without any difficulty. (see attached mp3) This is a very basic musical skill that any trained jazz musician could do fairly easily. It sounded vaguely ironic, but even a layman would easily recognize it. You may not agree with the practice, but surely a virtuoso player like yourself could easily play this or any major melody in minor.

Anyone with musical training knows that harmony varies in music. But since most bass who, for the most part don't read music, aren't correctly trained in harmony/theory and who often can barely function in one key let alone 12, will have unnecessary difficulty in practice or in art this concept that you offered with the Mozart Sonata.

But the whole point of doing these kinds of exercises is to help educate bassists about harmony and theory by showing them that playing things they already know in different ways changes the color of them without changing the essential structure of the melody (i.e. - the national anthem goes "5-3-1-3-5-8......3-2-1-3-#4-5..." etc.). My point in posting the Mozart example was to show what a simple and common process this is, and how easy it is to do with any melody.

The fact that many bassists are untrained just makes it that much more important to train them, or give them information to help them train themselves. Doing exactly this, in fact, is a large part of my daily work, and I think it's a worthy cause. If I had not had teachers share these sorts of concepts with me when I was much younger, I might still be an untrained bassist.

 

[micguy]

Is it too late to simply agree with the thread title? I'd like to applaud Jeff for saying we should question everything.

I'm not very schooled in music theory, but I do know, on a practical level, that no matter how many keys or modes you want to talk about, when I leave one note to go to another one, I have 11 choices, some of which sound better than others. Musical keys are a lot like different dishes at Taco Bell - no matter how creative you are about dreaming up new combinations (dishes), they're all the result of combining a relatively small universe of ingredients (notes). I spend my time learning what notes work where and when - so far, that approach is working for me.

 

[Drgonzonm]

I don't know who @JeffBerlin is, nor do I really care. The trash talking with regards to Mr. Berlin is counterproductive to what I see TB is.
In this thread, Mr. Berlin makes a statement, asks that a well known bassist not be identified, and then one of the posters mentions a name. After the name was mentioned, I realized that I had seen the video.
Look titling a thread "Jeff Berlin says ...." or "Jeff Berlin asks ..." seems pompous to me, however, it is an effective marketing tool, and Jeff Berlin is selling a product, himself.
From what I can tell, Berlin's seems to be "bassists are musicians, and why cheapen the Bass Image"
The trolls on this thread appear to have superior musical knowledge, are not afraid to say I don't need Berlin's methods of training. then they go on and strongly imply other bass players should follow their lead, by trashing Jeff Berlin.
Now, I know Jeff Berlin is a big boy, and handle the trash tossed at him. However, when 80% of the posts in his permitted forum is trash talking against him, that trash talk is counterproductive to what I see is TB's purpose.
Do we, outside the vinegar, report the trash talking to the moderators?
If you want Jeff Berlin off of TB, then complain to the moderators drop the trash talk.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Is it too late to simply agree with the thread title? I'd like to applaud Jeff for saying we should question everything.

I'm not very schooled in music theory, but I do know, on a practical level, that no matter how many keys or modes you want to talk about, when I leave one note to go to another one, I have 11 choices, some of which sound better than others. Musical keys are a lot like different dishes at Taco Bell - no matter how creative you are about dreaming up new combinations (dishes), they're all the result of combining a relatively small universe of ingredients (notes). I spend my time learning what notes work where and when - so far, that approach is working for me.

Unfortunately, the quality of teaching bass has become so poor, that it occurred to me that the best way for people interested in improving their playing is to question EVERYBODY'S teaching credentials. Mine included, as this is only fair.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I don't know who @JeffBerlin is, nor do I really care. The trash talking with regards to Mr. Berlin is counterproductive to what I see TB is.
In this thread, Mr. Berlin makes a statement, asks that a well known bassist not be identified, and then one of the posters mentions a name. After the name was mentioned, I realized that I had seen the video.
Look titling a thread "Jeff Berlin says ...." or "Jeff Berlin asks ..." seems pompous to me, however, it is an effective marketing tool, and Jeff Berlin is selling a product, himself.
From what I can tell, Berlin's seems to be "bassists are musicians, and why cheapen the Bass Image"
The trolls on this thread appear to have superior musical knowledge, are not afraid to say I don't need Berlin's methods of training. then they go on and strongly imply other bass players should follow their lead, by trashing Jeff Berlin.
Now, I know Jeff Berlin is a big boy, and handle the trash tossed at him. However, when 80% of the posts in his permitted forum is trash talking against him, that trash talk is counterproductive to what I see is TB's purpose.
Do we, outside the vinegar, report the trash talking to the moderators?
If you want Jeff Berlin off of TB, then complain to the moderators drop the trash talk.

Here is a quote from Christopher Hitchens that I feel is pertinent.

“If someone tells me that I've hurt their feelings, I'm still waiting to hear what your point is.

In this country, I've been told, 'That's offensive' as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don't.”

Me neither! I will state emphatically that I don't care whatsoever about anyone's hurt feelings and perceptions of insults because I try to relate with people and never make things personal. If people won't permit me to do this, this is on you. But I do invite you to stop this and ask me a question or two about your problems with your bass playing. I am happy to chat with you.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Again, respectfully, I just walked over to my bass and played this melody in the minor mode without any difficulty.

Oh, yes! It can be done. Bur, remember the roots of this post. Your views are absolutely true, but I would suggest that you have the skills to play a major melody in minor that might not be there if you weren't taught correctly during your formative years. Or else, you were capable in your self taught pursuits to figure out how to transpose music.