Sorry that it took so long to respond to your comment. I see that you have a lot of feeling regarding my comments. I am interested to know what you feel is incorrect about my views of the educational lesson in mind. Try not to find offense when none was offered. I genuinely wish to know what you view is incorrect in my educational comment. I am looking forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Jeff
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Jeff Berlin says = Question Everything that Bass Players Teach You. Question me, too!
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I like the list of the ten richest bass players. I wonder if the ten poorest bass players also can't read music? At least one of those on the ten richest play multiple instruments.
@JeffBerlin, I have a question, you mentioned that a song like the star spangled banner should not be played in minor key, because it is played in a major key. To me, the tune was from a drinking song, I thought Jimi H. Had a right to change the tune. If some one wants to sing our anthem in the feel of a country western song, I believe that they have the right. Do I have to like the version, of course not. In the early 90's, the pep band at Carlsbad High School played Jimi H. Version before basketball games. Some people didn't like it others thought, it was great.
@JeffBerlin, I have a question, you mentioned that a song like the star spangled banner should not be played in minor key, because it is played in a major key. To me, the tune was from a drinking song, I thought Jimi H. Had a right to change the tune. If some one wants to sing our anthem in the feel of a country western song, I believe that they have the right. Do I have to like the version, of course not. In the early 90's, the pep band at Carlsbad High School played Jimi H. Version before basketball games. Some people didn't like it others thought, it was great.
Thanks for sharing. To begin, I never said that it should not be played in a minor key. I said that because it is a major key melody as it is, it is available to be transposed only into 12 keys, not 30. As soon as one alters the melody of the National Anthem from its original tonality, it ceases to be the melody of the National Anthem.
Secondly, I never stated nor implied that someone shouldn't alter music for their artistic reasons. My views are entirely academic which is different than art.
Finally, the person referring to the ten richest bass players failed to recognize the difference between playing and learning. If I interpreted this comment correctly, this seems to imply that if the ten richest bass players might not read music (so to speak) then there doesn't seem to be any point in going to music school or learning about music. This logic doesn't work for me.
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Both are true: I had excellent teachers on other instruments and in music theory and history, but am self taught as a bassist. My posts were responding to the statements:
Saying "you can't take a major key melody (such as the National Anthem for example) and play it in minor" is very different from saying "you can take a major key melody (such as the National Anthem for example) and play it in minor, but only if you were taught correctly or capable in your self taught pursuits". I'm glad we were able to clear that point up.
However, in my experience there are many ways that a person may be educated in music, and both teachers and students process information in unique ways. I don't feel it's wise to assume that just because another teacher's methods are different than mine that they are teaching something incorrectly. If they make a connection with a student that inspires the student to think about the subject in a new way that causes the student to progress in their pursuit of musical growth, I would consider that a successful experience.
I have studied with a dozen bass teachers starting in the 70's' and on into the 21st century and every single one of them taught me music. This may be why I don't always get what you're saying.
If academic music and only academic music was taught to students, I wouldn't have a problem with the variants in teaching it that teachers and students seem to put so much importance on. But, this isn't the case. Practicing musical content barely exists in bass education. What does exist is that before people even experience what happens when you learn academic studies, students and teachers have already decided that everyone is different and should be taught this way. Thus, the mode of teaching supersedes the content of it which is prevents positive results in learning correctly.
One sheet of music that contains ideas to practice would make clear to anyone that we all learn mostly the same ways. But, because music isn't of an interest to bass students or their teachers, people aren't going to find this out first hand.
I would like this to change, but people have to want to find out for themselves that the "we are different and need to be taught this way" philosophy is mostly a myth.
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It would be good if you recognize that I am not speaking about Victor Wooten, but that the concepts of learning how to play, gigging, and traveling the world are unrelated principles. I see that people as yourself that use travel and employment as proof of teaching skills might not understand what teaching correctly actually entails. Hence, your fan love of your favorite bass teachers supersedes your adult regard of the information being shared to you to even ponder if the lessons being offer to you are musically supportable.
Learning is an out of time experience while playing is an in-time event. If gigging and traveling the world were the criteria that provided one to possess the skills to obtain successful teaching skills, then with this logic, Lemmy would have made a marvelous bass instructor.
You are making a mistake when you confuse fame, gigs, and travel with having the skills to enlighten people in how to improve their playing. I am pretty sure that you haven't learned music or how it works off your bass. I hope that you will consider trying to learn in a proper manner that will elevate your playing skills and awareness of music outside of styles of music.
Thank you by the way for asking about my particular professional situation. I am living in Nashville and involved with three recording projects at this time. This year I am touring in South America and have two tours in the works, one with Virgil Donati doing an Allan Holdsworth re-do, and one with Dennis Chambers and Scott Henderson.
Please let me know if I can answer anything else to your satisfaction. Best regards, Jeff
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@JeffBerlin I read @jallenbass post as meaning he had not been exposed to the issues in bass education that you describe. If that is the case, surely this is a good thing and something one might not hope for?
Yes it is. And I just got his meaning of his post, something that I would have missed, had it not been for you. I owe ya!
I'll offer my answer to his comments. Thank you for clarifying his meaning, something that I didn't catch.There is a phenomena that takes place with some of the bass players that I meet, that being that they express satisfaction with what they can play or what they've been taught.
I have an extensive history, decades actually, in hosting bass clinics. At these clinics, I've invited people to come and play for me. After hearing them play, I offer thoughts about what these people should work on to improve their playing. The phenomenon that I am referring to is that most bass players mean well and trust that those who have been taught have been taught correctly.
In the course of our short bass interaction, I offer a couple of simple musical lines or concepts to play. Doing this puts everyone into an equal situation of being exposed for their weaknesses relating to bass playing. It's hard to assign a solution for a playing deficit if you don't know what the deficit is.
Almost no one could solve the rather simple examples of music that I assigned them. This wasn't a bad thing but a good one as it instantly gave everyone the truth of their musical abilities. This only left the option to try and fix them which seemed to require bass teachers totally different than the ones that they claim helped to play well in the first place.
I doubt your comments about your bass teachers, but this doesn't mean that I am right. I can only come to a general conclusion regarding your comments based on my experience meeting bass players for many years and noticing that almost all share the same playing deficits and similar academic backgrounds. This is what helped me to conclude that bass teachers mostly don't know how to teach music to their students. There are other things but that's for another post.
I'd love to hear a clip of your bass playing just to get a sample of what has been taught to you. If you feel interested, post something here that you feel represents your bass playing. This will help me to get some insight into what you see as quality bass instruction. Perhaps you are right. I hope so!
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Exactly! I am always interested to know more about bass teachers that only teach musical content.
I agree that a melody, like the national anthem, can be transposed into twelve and only twelve keys. I understand your point that this is rock solid musical theory that needs no changing and tend to agree. But this applies to “western music”. I can’t help but wonder about quartertones here and wished I new more. There are now more tones at our disposal if we are considering quartertones so I assume there are also more key signatures but this may be a foolish assumption.
Not sure if you know Jeff, but I’m curious what happens if we are talking quarter tones? Do I now have 24 options of keys for transposing as would make logical mathematical sense? Can you shed some light on this for me if you have any knowledge?
Not sure if you know Jeff, but I’m curious what happens if we are talking quarter tones? Do I now have 24 options of keys for transposing as would make logical mathematical sense? Can you shed some light on this for me if you have any knowledge?
If you want an example of transposition mastery only possible with a high level of musical training...
Thank you. Now you have opened my eyes - it's the lack of quartertone knowledge that messes up with the bass players' education.
Quartertones - that's our bass players way to go.
I must admit I can't follow this statement. It seems to try to divide teachers into a binary choice between
1) those music teachers who focus on playing music in their bass lessons
2) those music teachers who don't focus on music in their bass lessons, instead choosing to focus on "everyone is different and should be taught this way"?
Like @jallenbass, I have had many music teachers at many levels over the years from the 60's onward, have been a faculty member of a university school of music for over 20 years now, and have never once encountered this second type of teacher. For this reason, statements made in opposition to this type of teacher I have never encountered in the real world make no sense to me.
When I said:
I simply meant that during the course of the study of music, one student may be aurally strong but a bad reader, while another might be a great typist on their instrument but not really be hearing much of what they are playing, while another might be able to sing everything they are trying to play perfectly but have such bad technique that it gets mangled on the way out. I would approach each of these students differently in terms of choosing what to focus on in their lessons. In short, I would focus on the things they struggle with the most because IMO that will help them improve the fastest and make them more balanced musicians. That we are in all cases focusing on music and making them better musicians is a given and not even a question.
This is a really good point. I think there is a place in lessons beyond just musical content, even if musical content such as a basic melody is the framework, for the physical techniques to be taught in their own right. In particular, good habits like safe left hand/wrist position, which is a bugbear of mine. I've lost count of the number of young players I've seen who will be lucky to still be playing in 5 years time due to CTS/RSI and the like.
I'd love to hear a clip of your bass playing just to get a sample of what has been taught to you. If you feel interested, post something here that you feel represents your bass playing. This will help me to get some insight into what you see as quality bass instruction. Perhaps you are right. I hope so!
Thanks for that offer Jeff. I'd be happy to do that though I probably can't get to it until the weekend
Walking a jazz standard? I could also post a studio recording of the original rock band I play in.
Roy,
For your specific question, you might look into "Makam: Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music," a book by Karl Signell, Ph.D. I understand Karl was a professor at University of Maryland, and he is one of the earlier academics who wrote on the subject matter. Unfortunately, to this day, the education in the field is based more on a mentor-protege relationship, to the best of my knowledge; and therefore, it is difficult to find a wealth of material on the subject matter. The sources in Turkish usually have 20-25 pages of explanation which just summarize some of the modes and the rest is like a Real Book, full of hundreds of songs.
Another source might be "The Maqam Book - A Doorway to Arab Scales and Modes" by David Muallem. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with this one though. When I was looking for the exact reference for Signell's book, I came across...
Hope this helps. Best,
Alper
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I see learning as best viewed within the boundary of the music that I am involved with. Western music affects me and affects almost everyone else. While quarter tone music exists, it seems prudent to remember that half tone music is the tonality that we all have to live with.
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